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Post by Kenny on Dec 30, 2004 2:00:02 GMT -5
Thoughts on this ever-so Baptist doctrine?
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Post by worthily on Dec 30, 2004 8:18:55 GMT -5
would you surmise the extent of forgiveness by way of asking in prayer?
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Post by Kenny on Dec 30, 2004 16:46:02 GMT -5
would you surmise the extent of forgiveness by way of asking in prayer? Nope.
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Post by rgrove on Dec 30, 2004 18:33:25 GMT -5
Thoughts on this ever-so Baptist doctrine? What definition would you like to set for once saved always saved? Your thread, your definition. My first thought, of course, is that this antinomianism being brought into the church under different clothes. It owes dispensationalism its thank you for that reintroduction en masse. Lewis Sperry Chafer, one of the most influential leaders of the movement and founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, was Presbyterian and carried a modified form of Calvinism into mainstream dispensational thought. My understanding is that Darby, the originator of this new doctrine, also held to Calvinist doctrine, but that could be incorrect. I read it by another dispensationalist who was saying that the Swiss were reluctant to listen to him at all until they found out he was firmly Calvinist in his soteriology, not directly from any work by Darby himself. Darby had some new ideas on grace and this developed over time into the formalized "carnal christian" concept where one can accept Christ as Savior, but not as Lord. Antinomianism had always been an accusation by Arminians against Calvinism. Of course genuine Calvinist doctrine of itself isn't antinomian, but I consider this to be an antinomian distortion of the original Biblical, Calvinist doctrine of the Perseverence of the Saints. On a personal note, I consider OSAS one of the most damaging aspects of dispensationalism on the church (Baptists being hard hit as noted of course). It also puts eternal souls at risk because people consider an unsaved person saved when they are still in need of salvation. While I was teaching through the Southern Baptist Faith & Message one couple insisted that someone could become a devil worshiper, die that way, and would still be saved. My pastor had a friend when he was studying in a dispensational seminary who kept working over a janitor there who wasn't Christian. Finally the janitor let this guy do a "sinners prayer" for him. When my pastor spoke to him, surprised to hear he had come to faith in Christ, he heard the truth. The janitor had done it to get the fellow off his back and was sincerely hoping it worked... When my pastor tried to discuss it with the overly zealous young evangelist said person claimed it didn't matter what the janitor said, he had said what needed to be said and was saved regardless of what he does now. He'd just be a "Carnal Christian" Once Saved Always Saved after all... Christianity can't be reduced to any magic phrases. It's a rebirth into a new creation that is growing into the image of Christ through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. If that's not happening, then salvation is still a question mark. In Christ, Ron
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Post by fairbank on Dec 30, 2004 19:58:35 GMT -5
Quite right Kenny and Ron. OSAS is (although distorted in translation from reformed theology to contemporary Baptist thought) common in Baptist life and thought. The distortion is in the object of reference.
Most are enthralled with the notion that a person can sin grievously and still go to heaven. The true focus of this doctrine should be upon the God who, having elected someone for salvation, become the sacrifice for their salvation, and sent the Spirit to apply their salvation, also saw to it that the change in heart by the work of the Holy Spirit was permanent, enabling them to PERSEVERE in love and good works.
The manifestation of this is a life marked by growth in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, not a malevolent maverick who ascends in spite of his behavior. The greatness and glory of this doctrine is not the perceived loophole for the rebellious, but the unbelievable power of God's electing love.
If only my Baptist brethren would not see this doctrine as "soft salvation" but rather as "sure salvation." I know that many who profess faith in Christ do not believe in this doctrine at all, but to quote my friend and mentor Spurgeon: "Many Christians who do not believe in the perseverence of the saints, are nevertheless saints who will, in fact persevere."
Bless you my brothers!
Eric
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Post by melinky on Dec 31, 2004 0:29:14 GMT -5
I don't believe that salvation is found in a "sinner's prayer" although it starts there. I believe that true repentance is an ongoing thing, it isn't saying I'm sorry and then doing the same thing again. Last, but not least, I think that salvation brings a change of life, the rebirth Ron mentioned: It's a rebirth into a new creation that is growing into the image of Christ through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. If that's not happening, then salvation is still a question mark. Melinda
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Post by Soulfyre on Dec 31, 2004 3:10:04 GMT -5
I don't believe that salvation is found in a "sinner's prayer" although it starts there. I believe that true repentance is an ongoing thing, it isn't saying I'm sorry and then doing the same thing again. Last, but not least, I think that salvation brings a change of life, the rebirth Ron mentioned: Melinda I essentially agree, since "salvation" is considered a "once and future event" connected by a continuum of "being saved". But that is for a thread on "salvation". While "once saved, always saved" is essentially true, it is OFTEN mistaught. As fairbank pointed out, what was once called the "perserverance of the saints" to those of the Synod of Dort (Reformed believers, or 'Calvinists') has been morphed into a doctrine which appears to imply that once one is heaven bound, one can live like hell, to which Paul rightly replied, "God forbid!" The original teaching was that God saves to the uttermost. In other words, those to whom God has given the gift of salvation He will also reliably be transformd into the very image of His Son. The outcome of His gift is assured. Thus, Paul could argue and In fact, one may consider the entire chapter 8 of Romans to be a paean to "once saved, always saved." Lest we be lulled to sleep in the cotton candy world of "easy believism", in which "salvation" is basically an eternal "Get out of jail free" card that can be re-used at will, Paul also states: [/b]--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. for if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God." (Romans 8:12-13)[/ul] Clearly, Paul is arguing that the activity of putting "to death the misdeeds of the body" defines those who are "led by the Spirit of God" and, hence, are "sons of God." No other definition will suffice. God will cause the Christian to perservere in good works. Does this mean that we will not sin, once we have become Christians? Of course not. Otherwise the words of I John 1:9 would be meaningless as an identifying mark of a true Christian. But it is equally true that the Christian will not persist in rebellion and sin, or as John eloquently states, "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin [i.e. whose life is typified by sin and rebellion against God] has either seen him or knows him."(I John 3:6) Even in the best of scenarios, continued sin in a Christian will result in the severe discipline of God (possibly even death, cf. I Corinthians 5:1-5). But in the worst case scenario, it typifies one who is, in fact, not saved. Once saved, always saved? In its essence, how could it be otherwise? But a "salvation" that does not bear sure and lasting fruit is, in fact, no salvation at all. Only God knows the heart. Even though we can admonish one another, and the church can excommunicate, these are the actions of love that hope in the repentance of the person so chastised. Yet who among us, knowing God's immeasurable love expressed in His Son, can yet tempt the sure hand of discipline from an aggrieved Father? Certainly, to do so with an imagination of arrogant impunity does not reveal the heart tender to sin that should be manifest in one saved from its devastation and death. For the one who is truly saved is "God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Ephesians 2:10) God bless and keep you, Matthew (soulfyre) P.S. Ron, I wouldn't necessarily lay this at the feet of "dispensationalism". Rather, it is a doctrine misstated and misused by those who do not understand what it actually says. But I do prefer the original "perserverance of the saints", in its immediate clarity.
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Post by Kenny on Dec 31, 2004 14:43:12 GMT -5
Yeah, everything you all said about the "Once saved, always saved" theory is what I believe, yet as many of you said many people don't understand it. Like many in my church that might act as
The people in that paragraph did. I was about to get up and start refuting what this one person was talking about in a Wed. night church because it was very misleading. It was his "revelation" on once saved always saved and it got me into a heap of fury...lol. The context in which he presented his "revelation" was very misleading and contradictory to what we have established here.
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Post by fairbank on Dec 31, 2004 20:22:18 GMT -5
I completely understand, Kenny. It is a source of frustration for such a precious doctrine to be misunderstood. At least when titled "perseverence of the saints" its name says it all. Those who are truly "saints" will persevere in love, faith and good works. Be one of those, and I am certain that your witness will positively impact those in question. May God bless you as you persevere my brother.
Eric
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Post by rgrove on Jan 1, 2005 15:46:02 GMT -5
P.S. Ron, I wouldn't necessarily lay this at the feet of "dispensationalism". Rather, it is a doctrine misstated and misused by those who do not understand what it actually says. But I do prefer the original "perserverance of the saints", in its immediate clarity. First, I concur with your excellent post on the matter. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear regarding dispensationalism. I was trying to say that antinomianism, which is in my opinion what OSAS became in the 20th century, has long been an accusation against the doctrine of Perseverence of the Saints. The modifications to this doctrine that occured in dispensational teachings on grace, and the "carnal christian" concept that resulted, were popularized by the dispensationalists in the last century. In case it wasn't unclear, I have never felt that antinomian thought was invented by dispensational brethren. It was already present in Paul's day. The history of this is probably beyond the scope of this posting, however. If it's worthy, perhaps I'll start a new thread on it. I do think the historical data on OSAS development is fairly conclusive. Happy New Year! Ron
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Post by Kenny on Jan 1, 2005 16:34:17 GMT -5
Hypothetical situation:
A guy is a firm believer in faith. Saves this girl who becomes his dear friend. She grows in faith as does he. However, he becomes interested in another girl and starts to become more of the world. He starts giving in to the desires of the flesh and is soon "non-caring" of 'sin', 'judgment', and the like.
It is not a question of whether or not he believed before, because he was an avid teller of the gospel, faithfully served church, friends, and family.
So, the dilema. Is this "guy" still saved? Although he doesn't care at the moment about God and all this "Jesus" stuff because he is too infatuated with this girl. Was he saved in the first place - could humans share the gospel, serve failthuflly, praise God, grow in Christ and still not be saved? In the Bible it tells us that we can tell if someone is a Christian by the 'fruits' of their mouth, etc. The fruits were there, now they aren't. Is this in example of not once saved always saved or was he never really saved in the first place?
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Post by fairbank on Jan 1, 2005 21:34:35 GMT -5
Great question Kenny. In my opinion, the answer to your question is "Yes." It could be either case. When you observe a professing Christian acting like a worldling, he has either forgotten about the One to whom he belongs, Christ, or he never belonged to Him in the first place.
In either case, they need to be encouraged to repent. From there, depending upon your determination, they should be urged to return to their life of following Christ, or to accept Him for the first time. People are known by their fruit, and judged by it as well. We cannot know their hearts, but if their behavior is the same as that of a pagan, we should witness to them. Examine the fruit (or lack thereof) with care, then loving encourage repentance.
Eric
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Post by melinky on Jan 2, 2005 1:00:08 GMT -5
This seemed to hit home to me a bit as I was reading it tonight:
God saw what they did; he saw that they had given up their wicked behavior. So he changed his mind and did not punish them as he had said he would.
Jonah was very unhappy about this and became angry. So he prayed, “LORD, didn’t I say before I left home that this is just what you would do? That’s why I did my best to run away to Spain! I knew that you are a loving and merciful God, always patient, always kind, and always ready to change your mind and not punish. Now then, LORD, let me die. I am better off dead than alive.â€
The LORD answered, “What right do you have to be angry?â€
Jonah went out east of the city and sat down. He made a shelter for himself and sat in its shade, waiting to see what would happen to Nineveh. Then the LORD God made a plant grow up over Jonah to give him some shade, so that he would be more comfortable. Jonah was extremely pleased with the plant. But at dawn the next day, at God’s command, a worm attacked the plant, and it died. After the sun had risen, God sent a hot east wind, and Jonah was about to faint from the heat of the sun beating down on his head. So he wished he were dead. “I am better off dead than alive,†he said.
But God said to him, “What right do you have to be angry about the plant?â€
Jonah replied, “I have every right to be angry—angry enough to die!â€
The LORD said to him, “This plant grew up in one night and disappeared the next; you didn’t do anything for it and you didn’t make it grow—yet you feel sorry for it! How much more, then, should I have pity on Nineveh, that great city. After all, it has more than 120,000 innocent children in it, as well as many animals!â€â€ (Jonah 3:10-4:11, TEV)
What I understood from this is that God wants all of us, but more than that, I see that even when we turn our backs on God, he still takes care of us, we still belong to Him. Now, is this true for the Christian who falls away from the church or evidence of OSAS? I don't know, I just know that He loves us and wants each and every one of us to trust in Him.
I'm sure there might be better passages to use as an example, this just happened to be what I was reading tonight.
Melinda
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Post by fairbank on Jan 2, 2005 2:33:19 GMT -5
Great example. Jonah was chosen by God, and remained a child of God, even though his behavior gave no indication of this.
Think about it...Johah was a racist. When he realized that his disobedience was the cause for the storm endanagering the lives of many others, he could have said, "Turn the boat around; I must follow God." But no; Jonah says "Throw me into the sea."He would rather die than share the truth with the Ninevites, because he believed that they were not deserving of God's mercy, much like many may see the terrorists today, or the way the Jews may have seen the Nazis during WWII.
Throughout the book of Jonah, he is miserable. The only time the Bible says he is happy is when the vine provides brief shade for him. Why was he happy? Because there was something in it for him. He was very self-centered.
All this to say that his behavior was like a man of the world, not a man of the Word. Even though he did belong to God as a prophet, I would have "witnessed" to him because his behavior was not that of a prophet of God.
Fortunately, as I believe you were pointing out Melinda, God still had a plan for this man He had chosen. Even when we act hateful or self-centered, if we belong to God we belong to God. My children sometimes show up at the front door filthy, but I still let them eat at my table because they are my children. God is great!
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Post by Kenny on Jan 2, 2005 15:54:56 GMT -5
Thanks guys. I have a friend who has this situation and it isn't so "hypothetical". I told her to keep urging him to turn back, but I couldn't tell her for sure if he was still a 'saved' person. Still, it frustrates me to call those people Christian, when their lives are totally hypocritical to ours and therefore neglects our purpose.
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