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Post by mandapanda on Jan 14, 2005 19:06:28 GMT -5
I was writing this and decided it would make a good discussion in here but was unsure whether to post it under the heading of things concerning salvation, or one concerning predestination vs. free will, but it involves both of these as well as the reconciliation of total Love and total Justice in the character of God.
Here is the problem. Suppose God chose some for salvation, such as the doctrine of election puts forward (or from what I gather, at least). The problem remains that He is, by doing so, showing favoritism by saving some and condemning some to hell.
The common explanation for this is: that grace isn't fair, in its very nature it is inherently unfair. Justice would demand that every one of us earns his punishment for sin: death. In His mercy God chooses to spare some. Why should we argue with God and accuse Him of being unfair in only offering it to some? We should be grateful that He has done that much.
Here is my problem with that explanation: I certainly do not presume to hold God to any kind of standard, and agree that if He is indeed Creator, He is entitled to make the rules; however, the Bible says that He holds Himself to the standard of Love towards all without favorites. This seems to me to be contradictory to the doctrine of election, in which He chooses only to save some.
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Post by fairbank on Jan 14, 2005 20:31:12 GMT -5
Mandapanda welcome! Also, well put. I appreciate the way you articulated what you perceive to be a contradiction or at least a conflict. In Psalm 145, the psalmist writes, "the Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made." In the same Bible God says "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated." In light of this one must consider the manner in which "the Lord is good to all." All are granted the general grace of life, breath, food to eat, and etc. But only some are chosen for the specific grace of salvation in Christ.
I think of it this way. A friend has adopted two children. When he takes them to a playground, he is concerned for the safety of all the children there, and will do whatever he can to make sure all are safe, but which children do you suppose he watches most closely? His own, of course, because he knows them and loves them because he chose to adopt them for his own. When playtime is over, which children go home with him? Once again, only his own. You had stated "the Bible says that He holds Himself to the standard of Love towards all without favorites." I don't believe that is correct.
God loved Israel in a way in which he did not love Egypt. God loved Jacob in a way in which he did not love Esau. God loves "the church" (those adopted by his grace through faith) in a way in which he does not love those who reject Christ. Please respond and tell me your thoughts. Glad you asked this excellent question. Once again, welcome and bless you!
Fairbank
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Post by rgrove on Jan 15, 2005 3:40:23 GMT -5
When I was just beginning to look into these things I had the good fortune of running into a very small book by a well respected theologian named D.A. Carson. It's entitled " The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God". At the time the title struck a cord with me. I had heard of Carson, but never read any of his material so i got it. It's only 84 pages because it was originally a series of lectures he gave in 1984 at Dallas Theological Seminary (one of the ones Soulfyre attended), as well as in the highly regarded Biblioteca Sacra, and has four chapters: 1) On Distorting the Love of God 2) God is Love 3) God's Love and God's Sovereignty 4) God's Love and God's Wrath Since he is fairly Calvinistic in his views of salvation he also touches on that area during the discussion. The book takes the same approach as Fairbanks did above which I wholeheartedly agree with. It just has more time to do so. There are countless other great works on this topic. I just recommend it as one short resource if you don't have a lot of time due to studies. I know in college time can be hard to come by, especially if you're working and studying at the same time! In Christ, Ron
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Post by melinky on Jan 17, 2005 17:34:14 GMT -5
I'm sure there is more to this than I realize, but I just can't buy into the idea of salvation being predestined. If it is predestined, why bother to pray for someone to find God, why bother trying to bring others to Christ, why bother with anything if it's already been decided? Color me confused, Melinda
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Post by Soulfyre on Jan 17, 2005 18:04:37 GMT -5
I'm sure there is more to this than I realize, but I just can't buy into the idea of salvation being predestined. If it is predestined, why bother to pray for someone to find God, why bother trying to bring others to Christ, why bother with anything if it's already been decided? Color me confused, Melinda Perhaps the best answer in to your question in this always difficult area is to say that it pleases God that we should play a part in the salvation of others through the proclamation of His good news (Paul referred to it as the "foolshness of preaching"). We do not, in fact we cannot, know what rests in the eternal counsels of God. Even Jesus said, "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by His own authority" (rf. Acts 2:7). Immediately following this prounouncement, Jesus said, "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth" (Acts 2:8). Why pray for someone to come to God? Why witness to others about Jesus Christ? Because that is the means that God uses to call others to Himself, and for such obedience and love we are responsible. For their response to the witness of God, others make an uncoerced choice and are responsible. For God's eternal decree, only God is responsible, and the mystery in which all three act together to maintain God's sovereignty and man's uncoerced will is lost in the mystery of holiness. The Orthodox are careful not to subject the Eternal to our finite rational constructions, because while we can apprehend God truly (for we can call Him Abba, and Jesus is the very image of God), we cannot apprehend the totality of God exhaustively. We witness and pray out of love, to imitate our Savior and Lord, and because such obedience to the Father manifests our love (cf. John 14). God bless and keep you in His faithful Love, that you may love our Bridegroom ever more faithfully, Matthew (soulfyre)
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Post by rgrove on Jan 17, 2005 18:28:21 GMT -5
I'm sure there is more to this than I realize, but I just can't buy into the idea of salvation being predestined. If it is predestined, why bother to pray for someone to find God, why bother trying to bring others to Christ, why bother with anything if it's already been decided? This sounds to me more like a question of whether or not God knows the future than specifically an election/predestination question. Do you believe that God knows the future exhaustively? Or are you not sure right now whether God knows the future? In Christ, Ron
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Post by mandapanda on Jan 17, 2005 22:22:28 GMT -5
Well, I am currently reading something on the topic by R.C. Sproul, and he insists that we delineate the difference between foreknowledge and predestination. However, I have had discsussions with other Christians who say the two are the same thing.
I certainly do not question God's foreknowledge, which is a part of His omniscience. I also do not think that knowing something will occur is the same thing as decreeing/forcing/mandating it to happen. But this too is arguable.
If you perceive us to be getting off topic, or not clarifying the topic appropriately, I am sorry... I have ADD and all of the topics frequently end up jumbled up in my mind... somehow they all seem interconnected to me.
I am looking more into what gave me the idea that God holds Himself to a standard of Love towards all, showing no favoritism. Some of the arguments in here have hinged largely on the truth/falsehood of that idea. I can see the logic in God's loving different people in different ways. I also know that the commonly held definition of love is not God's definition of Love.
Perhaps my idea of God showing Love equally to all, particularly in the area of salvation, comes from 2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentence." Also there is Romans 2:11 - "For God does not show favoritism." And I have heard many a sermon preached with a gospel invitation in it saying that God's grace is for anyone. Often John 3:16 is cited: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." How do these fit with the idea of an elect, and don't they seem to contradict Romans 9, which says that God will show favor upon whom He chooses to show favor?
Thank you so much for all your responses so far, and for the helpful points you have made, and resources offered. Also thank you for the manner in which they have been offered, in a gracious rather than criticizing way. I have been finding this to be a very supportive forum. Thanks!
Sincerely, Miranda Joy
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Post by melinky on Jan 17, 2005 23:42:31 GMT -5
This sounds to me more like a question of whether or not God knows the future than specifically an election/predestination question. Do you believe that God knows the future exhaustively? Or are you not sure right now whether God knows the future? In Christ, Ron I feel certain God knows the future exhaustively, but I'm not convinced that some are predestined for salvation and some are not. Yes, he knows whether or not we will choose Him, but I don't think He causes us to choose Him. I feel certain He nudges toward Him, but the decision is ultimately ours, even though He knows what we'll do before we do it. Goodness, my head is spinning! I think that for tonight I have to simply say that all in all, it really doesn't matter. I think this is one of those things we don't have to know. It's great to ponder, but not necessary to know. Don't get me wrong, this doesn't mean I won't be looking for the answer, it just means that right now sleep is more important so I'll have a fresh mind to ponder this question further tomorrow. After all, tomorrow is another day..... Melinda
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Post by melinky on Jan 17, 2005 23:51:16 GMT -5
Well, I am currently reading something on the topic by R.C. Sproul, and he insists that we delineate the difference between foreknowledge and predestination. However, I have had discsussions with other Christians who say the two are the same thing. I certainly do not question God's foreknowledge, which is a part of His omniscience. I also do not think that knowing something will occur is the same thing as decreeing/forcing/mandating it to happen. But this too is arguable. If you perceive us to be getting off topic, or not clarifying the topic appropriately, I am sorry... I have ADD and all of the topics frequently end up jumbled up in my mind... somehow they all seem interconnected to me. I am looking more into what gave me the idea that God holds Himself to a standard of Love towards all, showing no favoritism. Some of the arguments in here have hinged largely on the truth/falsehood of that idea. I can see the logic in God's loving different people in different ways. I also know that the commonly held definition of love is not God's definition of Love. Perhaps my idea of God showing Love equally to all, particularly in the area of salvation, comes from 2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentence." Also there is Romans 2:11 - "For God does not show favoritism." And I have heard many a sermon preached with a gospel invitation in it saying that God's grace is for anyone. Often John 3:16 is cited: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." How do these fit with the idea of an elect, and don't they seem to contradict Romans 9, which says that God will show favor upon whom He chooses to show favor? Thank you so much for all your responses so far, and for the helpful points you have made, and resources offered. Also thank you for the manner in which they have been offered, in a gracious rather than criticizing way. I have been finding this to be a very supportive forum. Thanks! Sincerely, Miranda Joy Miranda, Your post made it before I finished mine. Real life kept calling while I was trying to get my thoughts together. I totally agree with your thought that "knowing something will occur is not the same thing as decreeing/forcing/mandating it to happen." Thanks for all of your thoughts on this subject. Now I really must say goodnight! Melinda
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Post by rgrove on Jan 18, 2005 4:47:55 GMT -5
Hmmm... so much to answer, so little time... Too bad we can't just sit down for coffee and go over it in an evening. I will try to address some questions and concerns both of you have from a distinctly reformed point of view (as you may have already gathered by previous references to the 1689 London Baptist Confession). It's a little long, I admit, but deep questions deserve a deep response. I can only hope and pray this meager effort qualifies as such. I pray anyone that reads it finds some edification, but beyond this that it glorifies God through the demonstration of the inestimable grace and mercy he has shown His undeserving servant. I'm glad to hear that this is how you feel. I'm positive that's exactly what Soulfyre and Melinky want for the forum. If people want anarchy and smart alec one liner put downs or arbitrary prooftexting there are literally hundreds of forums they can go to. I certainly don't claim the knowledge of Dr. Sproul, that's for sure, but I hope my experience can be a guide at least. First, let me commend you on finding an excellent current teacher at articulating the reformed view of salvation. Second, let me share with you my experiences as I first looked into the issue. This may help as much as anything else I say. I first encountered the division in Protestantism when I decided to study more deeply the difference between the Catholic concept of inhered grace and the Protestant concept of imputed grace. As I began to do my research I quickly ran into the infamous Arminian/Calvinist divide. I had never heard of it. I had heard of Calvinism and knew it had something to do with predestination, but it was never a subject that interested me. Well, now it was very pertinent to the issue I was studying so I began getting works on the topic. I read a few books by R.C. Sproul, and honestly, when I was done I still had no idea what the big deal was about. I read other books on both sides of the issue and I saw a lot of heat, but I really didn't understand what the big deal was and why it was so divisive. I studied it fairly steadily for several months. I'd say probably close to six months before I finally understood. It was in the couch I'm in now and I was reading the introduction to Martin Luther's book "Bondage of the Will" which I had heard referred to so frequently (Especially by Sproul). As I went through the outstanding introduction by the great Anglican Theologian J.I. Packer I read a lot of familiar things, but as the dialog between Luther and a man named Erasmus was unfolded I began to see a little better until in the conclusion it was like a lightening strike. It's probably the most "spiritual" experience I've ever had in my life. It was like the lights finally came on and i understood the reformation standard of salvation " by grace alone, through[/i] faith alone in Christ alone". I finally understood that grace was the issue at stake. I'll quote from page 59 of Packer's introduction (bold print is my emphasis, not theirs). The doctrine of free justification by faith only, which became the storm-centre of so much controversy during the Reformation period, is often regarded as the heart of the Reformers' theology, but this is hardly accurate. The truth is that their thinking was really centered upon the contention of Paul, echoed with varying degrees of adequacy by Augustine, and Gottschalk, and Bradwardine, and Wycliffe, that the sinner's entire salvation is by free and sovereign grace only. The doctrine of justification by faith was important to them because it safeguarded the principle of sovereign grace; but it actually expressed for them only one aspect of this principle, and that not its deepest aspect. The sovereignty of grace found expression in their thinking at a profounder level still, in the doctrine of monergistic regeneration - the doctrine, that is, that the faith which receives Christ for justification is itself the free gift of a sovereign God, bestowed by spiritual regeneration in the act of the effectual calling. To the Reformers, the crucial question was not simply, whether God justifies believers without works of the law. It was the broader question, whether sinners are wholly helpless in their sin, and whether God is to be thought of as saving them by free, unconditional, invincible grace, not only justifying them for Christ's sake when they come to faith, but also raising them from the death of sin by His quickening Spirit in order to bring them to faith. Here was the crucial issue: whether God is the author, not merely of justification, but also of faith; whether, in the last analysis, Christianity is a religion of utter reliance on God for salvation and all things necessary to it, or of self-reliance and self-effort. 'Justification by faith only' is a truth that needs interpretation. The principle of sola fide is not rightly understood till it is seen as anchored in the broader principle of sola gratia. What is the source and status of faith? Is it the God-given means whereby the God-given justification is received, or is it a condition of justification which is left to man to fulfil? Is it a part of God's gift of salvation, or ist it man's own contribution to salvation? Is our salvation wholly of God, or does it ultimately depend on something that we do for ourselves? Those who say the latter (as the Arminians did later) thereby deny man's utter helplessness in sin, and affirm that a form of semi-Pelagianism is true after all. It is no wonder, then, that later Reformed theology condemned Arminianism as being in principle a return to Rome (because in effect it turned faith into a meritorious work) and a betrayal of the Reformation (because it denied the sovereignty of God in saving sinners which was the deepest religious and theological principle of the Reformer's thought.As I pondered this so much finally came into focus. So many pieces of scripture whose import had alluded me became so clear. Now that I fully understood that faith was grounded completely in grace, a free gift from God, I was able to read Ephesians 2:1-10 without the glasses of my own sovereignty in my salvation and truly take its import in for the first time. Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sinsIt was true! I was dead. I had the analogy for salvation all wrong. As Sproul once taught, it's usually said that the sinner is in a lake, treading water, but barely staying afloat under his own power, and then someone comes by and throws him his salvation in the form of life preserver. All the sinner has to do is reach out and grab hold of the life preserver. I finally understood this isn't the right picture at all. I was dead. I was at the bottom of the lake dead. There were people as I look back interested in my salvation, but I didn't see them and I didn't see the life preserver they were throwing me. Verses ran through my head like a film. Rom 8:7-8 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.Rom 3:10-18 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.", "There is no fear of God before their eyes.”1 Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.I wasn't just damaged goods. Dead means dead. I was incapable of understanding unless God opened my eyes for me. Then Paul goes on:
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Post by rgrove on Jan 18, 2005 4:49:54 GMT -5
Eph 2:2-3 - in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience — among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
I truly was a child of wrath like everybody else. Paul gives no room for exceptions. I won't go into my wayward youth, but it was wayward enough that I'm lucky to be alive today. My walls were covered in death metal albums in jr high & high school. A few of my closest drug buddies I hung out with wore upside down crosses around their necks and were in a satanically oriented death metal band. These were the guys I drank heavily with, I smoked pot with, I took mushrooms with, I went out into the fields looking in cowpies looking for more mushrooms with, etc. And I enjoyed it. I knew I was wrong, but it didn't matter. I suppressed all of my doubts, my knowledge of good and evil, and I loved my sin. Only a higher love brought me out of that, my love of the idea of being a sports star. I was very good at golf and had a chance of getting a scholarship to a good college. I quit drugs so I could pursue this greater love. Money and future worldly success. I was spiritually dead, a child of wrath there could be no doubt.
Paul goes on to say:
Eph 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ
He drew me to him. I never once looked His direction. I was such a pain about church that my mother didn't bother to try and catechize me in our Catholic church. Once a Sunday School teacher asked me what I would do on Sunday when I was out of school. I said play golf. I was honestly answering the question. I didn't even understand what she was getting at. She asked me if it was raining what I'd do. I said play golf. She said it was raining sideways. I said I'd sit in the pro shop talking to the assistant pro at the golf course we were members at until it subsided, and then play golf. I never caught on to the fact that she wanted me to say I'd go to church. Afterwards others came to me laughing telling me what she wanted to hear. I shrugged my shoulders and said things not worth repeating here. No, I didn't look for him. I wasn't treading water on my own. I never saw a life preserver because I had no spiritual eyes to see any such life preserver. I was dead at the bottom of the lake but now, God sovereignly began to intervene in my life despite myself. He pulled me up in college and put my corpse on the side of the lake. And there, on the side of that lake, he breathed life into me. He stirred my spiritual being at Boise State University in the midst of the dorm rooms. At the height of my ambition. He made me wonder about the Mormon church and began to call me by his voice with effectual resurrection power. He slowly opened my eyes by bringing me around to finally reading the Bible. He isolated me from friends and family in a foreign town with nobody to teach me falsely. It was just me and the Bible. I tried to go to the Catholic church, but it wasn't meeting my need and answered no questions. It was me and His word and He used it to save me from the path I had chosen for myself. My selfish pursuits began to crumble as I began to leave the life I had chosen for myself. He brought me to utter ruin as I left BSU after three years to return to Portland, OR and figure out what to do with my life now that what I had lusted after was gone and I no longer even desired it. He brought me into the Army. He brought me into the relationship with a young Baptist woman who had also joined the Army. We got married and my real life, the life filled with love for my Saviour that he predestined me to have by His sovereign grace alone, began to get underway.
Eph 2:5-7 - by grace you have been saved and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
All of grace. A free gift. I realized, if it were not for this grace, this free gift, I would never have been shown any of the kind of love that he was now showing me in Christ. And if it were not a free gift, but one deserved by me for my free exercise of faith, it was not by grace! It would have been an obligation. He shows the love of common grace to the unrepentent sinner. But not the kind of love that He shows those whom He has adopted as His children. I finally understood that He adopted me freely, I didn't adopt Him. If I, through my own exercise of will, achieved the condition he set of faith, then it's no longer by grace that I was saved. He must save me because I "figured it out". Something about me was better than the others who couldn't get it. I figured it out and now claimed adoption? No, from the foundation of the world he chose me despite myself for adoption and his paperwork was completed on the cross at Calvary in the person of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Then the climax of these verses came through:
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
The full import is lost here because we don't have gender. But the "this" and "it" are in neuter case here meaning that it contains both the grace and the faith. Faith is also a gift from God. Only by God's free grace could I have the ability to exercise it, and only by the gift of God would I exercise it. Again, if it's not a gift freely given by God, then by definition it's not grace. Furthermore, there was never any doubt that I would have as I began to see from scripture:
Rom 8:28-30 - And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
He foreknew me personally, not a thing, not a concept, not an organization, God foreknew me. I finally understood two things that I had not understood (but had been taught) previously. When the term foreknow is used with God as the subject it is always personal in nature. It's a special kind of knowledge of those for whom he sent his son. It's deep. It's so deep that just the pondering of it at this moment brings some tears to my eyes. This deep, personal, connection is the spiritual heart of the reformed faith in many ways. Also, notice the chain of events here. "Those whom he predestined he also called" How many of those predestined are called? 50%? 75%? No, all of them. "Those" is for everyone predestined. It makes no sense any other way. And "those whom he called he also justified". Again. How many? It's clear from the context he means everyone he called, he justified. And the apostle continues "and those whom he justified he also glorified". Everyone predestined to eternal life is going to come, eventually, in time, to eternal life. The rest will be passed over.
Matt 11:27 - All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
He chose to reveal Himself to me.
1 Thess 5:9-10 - For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.
Again, His purpose was fulfilled in His work in my life.
1 Peter 1:1 - To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
1 Peter 2:8b-10 - They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
Mercy. What a glorious thing! Is it mercy if I have a right to it? No, it's mercy because it's freely given by grace. I could go back to Ephesians 1 and see this grace was given before the foundation of the world!
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Post by rgrove on Jan 18, 2005 4:53:48 GMT -5
Eph 1:3-12 - Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
2 Thess 2:13-14 - But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rev 13:7-8 - lso it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.
Rev 17:8-9 - The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
2 Tim 1:8-9 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began
These truths are truly deep, but notice that God's free and sovereign GRACE is the focal poin of the issue! It's the heat. It's the deep truth. Oh what a deep and personal love the Savior has for his own! But we must finish with the apostle's words to us:
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
And now, I finally undestood Romans 9 where the Apostle once again unveils some of the mystery of eternity:
Rom 9:10-23 - when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory
I ask you. Why must Paul answer such questions? Is the Arminian synergist ever asked such a question? No, only one who fully accepts the free, monergistic grace of our sovereign God. I take a measure of comfort that I have to answer the same question Paul does here, but that those in disagreement have built an entire system so as to avoid this very question. It was only once I surrendered my will totally and completely to a truly omniscient, omnipotent God, that I was able to make progress with the questions you have asked.
Do you see the importance of the questions that the Doctrines of Grace bring to the issue of salvation?
T - "Total Inability" This gets to the very heart of the nature of fallen man? What is his nature? U - "Unconditional Election" - Is salvation truly "by grace through faith"? Or is it given as reward for figuring out the riddle of life? L - "Limited Atonement" - What is the nature and extent of the atonment of our Lord and Savior? This is the focal point of the entire faith. What happened at the cross? Did Christ take on all of Hitler's sins on the cross? If so then is he saved? If not why not? Because of unbelief? Is that not a sin? Why wasn't that sin atoned for on the cross as well? Is the cross sufficient to save a sinner or is it just a promise? I - "Irresistable Grace" - Nothing short of the invincible, resurrection power of God unto the salvation of Mankind. P - "Perseverence of the Saints" - We are signed, sealed and delivered from eternity past. In christ there is peace everlasting.
I submit that you look past the terms predestination and election and see grace, what it means, and how it's dispensed. And then you'll have the answers you're looking for. No matter how many words I put on paper, they won't open your eyes to these glorious truths, though. They are only s een by the eyes of faith in absolute submission to God's infallible, inerrent Word to our fallen race.
Soli Deo Gloria! Ron
John 6:44-45 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me
John 10:14-17 - I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.
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Post by rgrove on Jan 18, 2005 12:16:08 GMT -5
For a brief look at one of the ways I make an exegetical defense of compatibilism please take a look at this thread elsewhere on this board: In what Biblical sense is fallen man's will free? soulfyremac.proboards27.com/index.cgi?board=theo&action=display&thread=1104358632I haven't done my exegesis directly on the "Bondage of the Wil" yet, but I'll try to complete it now that this is coming to a head. In christ, Ron
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Post by rgrove on Jan 18, 2005 12:52:45 GMT -5
This is from R.C. Sproul's article "The Pelagian Captivity Of The Chuch" that underscores how radically different the Reformers views on grace were from what you see today. It's also the article that I referred to that came to clarity as I sat and read Luther's "Bondage of the Will". www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul/PelagianCaptivity.pdfBut it's that little island of righteousness where man still has the ability, in and of himself, to turn, to change, to incline, to dispose, to embrace the offer of grace that reveals why historically semi -Pelagianism is not called semi-Augustinianism, but semi-Pelagianism, It never really escapes the core idea of the bondage of the soul, the captivity of the human heart to sin-that it's not simply infected by a disease that may be fatal if left untreated, but it is mortal.
I heard an evangelist use two analogies to describe what happens in our redemption. He said sin has such a stronghold on us, a stranglehold, that it's like a person who can't swim, who falls overboard in a raging sea, and he's going under for the third time and only the tops of his fingers are still above the water; and unless someone intervenes to rescue him, he has no hope of survival, his death is certain. And unless God throws him a life preserver, he can't possibly be rescued. And not only must God throw him a life preserver in, the general vicinity of where he is, but that life preserver has to hit him right where his fingers are still extended out of the water, and hit him so that he can grasp hold of it. It has to be perfectly pitched. But still that man will drown unless he takes his fingers and curls them around the life preserver and God will rescue him. But unless that tiny little human action is done, he will surely perish.
The other analogy is this: A man is desperately ill, sick unto death, lying in his hospital bed with a disease that is fatal. There is no way he can be cured unless somebody from outside comes up with a cure, a medicine that will take care of this fatal disease. And God has the cure and walks into the room with the medicine. But the man is so weak he can't even help himself to the medicine; God has to pour it on the svagina. The man is so sick he's almost comatose. He can't even open his mouth, and God has to lean over and open up his mouth for him. God has to bring the svagina to the man's lips, but the man still has to swallow it.
Now, if we're going to use analogies, let's be accurate. The man isn't going under for the third time; he is stone cold dead at the bottom of the ocean. That's where you once were when you were dead in sin and trespasses and walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air. And while you were dead hath God quickened you together with Christ. God dove to the bottom of the sea and took that drowned corpse and breathed into it the breath of his life and raised you from the dead. And it's not that you were dying in a hospital bed of a certain illness, but rather, when you were born you were born D.O.A. That's what the Bible says: that we are morally stillborn.
Do we have a will? Yes, of course we have a will. Calvin said, if you mean by a free will a faculty of choosing by which you have the power within yourself to choose what you desire, then we all have free will. If you mean by free will the ability for fallen human beings to incline themselves and exercise that will to choose the things of God without the prior monergistic work of regeneration then, said Calvin, free will is far too grandiose a term to apply to a human being. The semi-Pelagian doctrine of free will prevalent in the evangelical world today is a pagan view that denies the captivity of the human heart to sin. It underestimates the stranglehold that sin has upon us. None of us wants to see things as bad as they really are. The biblical doctrine of human corruption is grim. We don't hear the Apostle Paul say, "You know, it's sad that we have such a thing as sin in the world; nobody's perfect. But be of good cheer. We're basically good." Do you see that even a cursory reading of Scripture denies this? Now back to Luther. What is the source and status of faith? Is it the God-given means whereby the God-given justification is received? Or is it a condition of justification which is left to us to fulfill? Is your faith at work? Is it the one work that God leaves for you to do? I had a discussion with some folks in Grand Rapids, Michigan, recently. I was speaking on sola gratia, and one fellow was upset. He said, "Are you trying to tell me that in the final analysis it's God who either does or doesn't sovereignly regenerate a heart?"
And I said, "Yes;" and he was very upset about that. I said, "Let me ask you this: are you a Christian?" He said, "Yes." I said, "Do you have friends who aren't Christians?" He said, "Well, of course." I said, "Why are you a Christian and your friends aren't? Is it because you're more righteous than they are?" He wasn't stupid. He wasn't going to say, "Of course it's because I'm more righteous. I did the right thing and my friend didn't." He knew where I was going with that question. And he said, "Oh, no, no, no." I said, 'Tell me why. Is it because youre smarter than your friend?" And he said, "No." But he would not agree that the final, decisive issue was the grace of God. He wouldn't come to that. And after we discussed this for fifteen minutes, he said, "OK! I'll say it. I'm a Christian because I did the right thing, I made the right response, and my friend didn't." What was this person trusting in for his salvation? Not in his works in general, but in the one work that he performed. And he was a Protestant, an evangelical. But his view of salvation was no different from the Roman view.
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Post by melinky on Jan 18, 2005 22:28:40 GMT -5
I've come up with two different thoughts on this subject and I'm not sure which, if either, goes along with what you're saying. - Our salvation is predestined because God sees the beginning, the middle and the end. We still have choices that are our own to make, but He knows what we'll do before we do it. Therefore, He knows who belongs to Him and who doesn't.
or
- Each of us has been predestined from the beginning of time to accept or deny salvation. In other words, God has determined which of us will be saved and which of us won't.
I guess what I'm asking is does God DECIDE who belongs to Him, or does he just KNOW because He sees from beginning to end? Yours in Christ, Melinda
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