|
Post by melinky on Jan 2, 2005 20:09:25 GMT -5
Thanks guys. I have a friend who has this situation and it isn't so "hypothetical". I told her to keep urging him to turn back, but I couldn't tell her for sure if he was still a 'saved' person. Still, it frustrates me to call those people Christian, when their lives are totally hypocritical to ours and therefore neglects our purpose. Perhaps it might help to think of them as lost or wandering Christians. I have to say that I came into this thread totally not accepting the idea of OSAS, however, after reading Jonah I think I believe, however, receiving salvation through Jesus Christ is not something that I would care to take for granted. Melinda
|
|
|
Post by Kenny on Jan 2, 2005 21:20:10 GMT -5
Perhaps it might help to think of them as lost or wandering Christians. I have to say that I came into this thread totally not accepting the idea of OSAS, however, after reading Jonah I think I believe, however, receiving salvation through Jesus Christ is not something that I would care to take for granted. Melinda Me either!
|
|
|
Post by rgrove on Jan 3, 2005 11:52:11 GMT -5
Unfortunately even if it was a genuine hypothetical question in your case, it would have been true of many, many others in the world today... Not something people can determine. If he is saved and in a backsliding position right now, the Lord will draw him back to the fold and use these experiences to make him a better Christian than he would have been otherwise. Although that's no excuse for backsliding... This has been answered adequately. I'll only point out that Jonah has a flip side. His name was Judas Iscariot. We can never know the hearts of men or women. I can only say that we are "justified by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone". This was Luther's response to those who said that sola fide was antinomian. There is always a balance and we should treat backsliders with love and compassion in hopes that the Lord will use us to bring them back to the fold. If they are His, in the end they will know his voice. If they aren't, then they'll hear the worst words I can possibly imagine hearing on the day of the Lord. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' (Matt 7:21-23). As with unbelievers, we are only responsible for being faithful witnesses of Christ to backsliders. I pray your friend comes back to the fold sooner than later, and certainly before he meets his Lord. In Christ, Ron
|
|
|
Post by melinky on Jan 3, 2005 12:01:41 GMT -5
"Backsliders," is such an ugly word, but I think it accurately depicts the nature of a Christian who is not behaving in a Christ-like manner. I can't imagine going back to life before Christ and pray that I never will. Melinda
|
|
|
Post by Kenny on Jan 16, 2005 13:57:47 GMT -5
Josuha 1:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
Explain. Seems like a clear contradiction to what you have told me beforhand. This being on the 'hypothetical situation'. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by rgrove on Jan 16, 2005 18:22:07 GMT -5
Explain. Seems like a clear contradiction to what you have told me beforhand. This being on the 'hypothetical situation'. Thanks. I presume you mean the 2 Peter 2:20-21 passage. No, there is no contradition here to what I told you. Rather than exegete the passage fully myself, I ask you to take a look at the context very closely. And, very important, follow the pronouns. Who is the Apostle Peter speaking of here? Follow the pronouns back to their sources. Also, you left off the very next passage in this series of verses. What does verse 22 tell us about the people in question? Does it help answer who the pronouns are referring to? Also, what other things does the text previous to these verses say about those in question? Context is so very important. Immediate context, context of the book a passage is found in, and context of the rest of the Bible. You might as well hit all of the hard verses while you're at it. Look at Heb 6:1ff as well. I once heard R.C. Sproul say in one of the MP3 teachings I downloaded from his site, that a seminary student asked him once what the fastest way to deepen their theological outlook was. His recommendation, find the hardest passages of scripture to grapple with and grapple with them. Don't just sit on the ones that give you a warm and fuzzy. Go study the toughest ones you can fine. Anyhow, this verse from Hebrews is also regularly used against the doctrine of the Perseverence of the Saints. I would say it's a more difficult one to handle than the one you quoted here. At least it was for me. But as I approached them all, I knew there was no contradiction present, only a lack of understanding on my part. In Christ, Ron
|
|
|
Post by Soulfyre on Jan 17, 2005 11:17:40 GMT -5
Excellent guidance on the process of interpretation. I also liked your reference to R. C. Sproul's advice. Far too often, we study only those verses we think we know (not that our knowledge of them is reliably accurate), and leave the difficult passages in the background. This practice often guarantees an understanding that is skewed at best and fallacious at worst. Incidentally, it might be interesting to point out here that among Orthodox Christians, the question "have you been saved?" is often responded to with a rather quizzical look. They prefer to understand salvation as a process whose validity for a person is established at the end, not the beginning. Hence, they would be more likely to say, "I am being saved." Even for the individual, the emphasis is on perserverance, not a stasis of belief--it is whether the branch remains fruitful. May you always abide in Christ and remain fruitful until the day of his appearing! Matthew (soulfyre)
|
|
|
Post by Kenny on Jan 25, 2005 22:13:37 GMT -5
I presume you mean the 2 Peter 2:20-21 passage. No, there is no contradition here to what I told you. Rather than exegete the passage fully myself, I ask you to take a look at the context very closely. And, very important, follow the pronouns. Who is the Apostle Peter speaking of here? Follow the pronouns back to their sources. Also, you left off the very next passage in this series of verses. What does verse 22 tell us about the people in question? Does it help answer who the pronouns are referring to? Also, what other things does the text previous to these verses say about those in question? Context is so very important. Immediate context, context of the book a passage is found in, and context of the rest of the Bible. You might as well hit all of the hard verses while you're at it. Look at Heb 6:1ff as well. I once heard R.C. Sproul say in one of the MP3 teachings I downloaded from his site, that a seminary student asked him once what the fastest way to deepen their theological outlook was. His recommendation, find the hardest passages of scripture to grapple with and grapple with them. Don't just sit on the ones that give you a warm and fuzzy. Go study the toughest ones you can fine. Anyhow, this verse from Hebrews is also regularly used against the doctrine of the Perseverence of the Saints. I would say it's a more difficult one to handle than the one you quoted here. At least it was for me. But as I approached them all, I knew there was no contradiction present, only a lack of understanding on my part. In Christ, Ron Thank you. Sorry for the quick and incorrect reference. I was talking to her via AIM and she sent me the scripture and said it was in Joshua. As you can probably tell I didn't study it at all, since I could not have since I had the reference incorrect. I was looking for a quick response to give to her when I was talking to her that day, but unfortuanately it didn't happen and ashamed to say, I was too tired to look myself. lol I guess it would be a compliment to you, since I came to you all first. lol Yes, context is very important and I am always telling that to those "bible contradiction" people...lol I shall look at it now, tomorrow perhaps when it's not 10:18 P.M...lol
|
|
|
Post by Soulfyre on Jan 26, 2005 2:06:23 GMT -5
Ah, yes. Work while it is yet light, for the darkness cometh in which no man can work. Sounds like the darkness caught up with you, brother. Frankly, its creeping up on me a bit too, but I am a night person. It's not that I love the darkness rather than the light because my deeds are evil--that's just when I'm awake and it is quiet. Ooooh...sorry for that string of text out of context. And yes, it was a pretext for some sorry humor. Get some sleep, Kenny. God bless you always, Matthew (soulfyre)
|
|