Women and the Church

[melinky]

Matthew, thank you for that beautiful portrait of what life should and could be. Submission has never been one of my strengths, but I believe that in the type of relationship you have described, I could willingly surrender my dominant nature. I don't know if that kind of relationship is in my future or not, I'm afraid I've used my chances up. But this is certainly what I dream of.

Your sister in Christ,

Melinda

[Soulfyre]

Then I shall pray that God shall give you the desires of your heart, and His.

God bless you always,

Matthew (soulfyre)

[rgrove]

Melinda,

I understand your looking back and seeing the fact that the men in your life weren't putting Christ first. Early in my marraige I can't say I was at all. When we disagreed I think there was more trouble then as a result. Christ was missing from our relationship. We were both believers, but I now feel that there's a large difference between having two people who are believers married and two people who submit all their lives to Christ, including their relationships. When obediance to Christ isn't the focal point of a husband's leadership in the family things all "leadership" becomes arbitrary and the husband becomes a law unto himself (the literal meaning of "autonomy"). Only as I grew in Christ was I able to begin to understand and exercise Biblical "servant" leadership. Even little things like doing the laundry or the dishes or fill-in-the-blank become very different. Once I only did it because I figured we both worked so I should do some of the chores as well. Now I do it to serve the one I love just as Christ served me by sacrificing himself on the cross for my transgressions. It's a 180 degree turn in motivation and I hope no man reading this thinks otherwise. It's literally part of a husband taking up his Cross and demonstrating Christ's love as an example for his wife, children, extended family and friends. In a way, I have come to consider my relationship with my wife as a way to reflect Christ to those around me. They know we have a different relationship. It goes unsaid and it's respected very much by my coworkers who are largely unsaved.

In our church on the first Tuesday of every month (today as a matter of fact) the elders lead the men in a special Bible study. Right now they are doing Christian leadership. So many of us in the business world confuse secular concepts for how we are supposed to "lead" our household. Truly a travesty because while some things cross over, the essence of Christ's model of servant leadership simply does not. The point is, though, that in the last eleven years, as I've grown, it's made a big difference in our relationship. We still have our differences, but it makes a world of difference now that my wife knows beyond any doubt that I consider myself a slave to Christ and seek to fulfill his will in our household and in our relationship. She's also slowly come to look to me for leadership in areas where she was more independant before, or at least more assertive. Doesn't mean she doesn't express opinion ;D , but I think she feels more comfortable somehow as we continue to grow closer to the Biblical model by God's grace alone.

On a side note, I once heard of the conversion of a woman who used to be like Howard Stern on the radio. A friend kept inviting her to church and she finally went. Needless she didn't have a very Biblical view of proper male/female relationships. The pastor I believe was preaching on Ephesians 5:21-31 of all things:

22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Eph 5:25-31 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church– for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”"

My understanding was when the pastor was expounding on how a husband ought to love his wife she leaned over to her friend and mentioned she might be interested in a man that behaved like that, and even though she hadn't connected it to the gospel herself, her friend pointed out to her that Jesus had by going to the cross for people just like them. The preaching on this passage was evidently what God used to draw this woman into His family. Like I said, I don't remember who it was, but the story has had quite an impact on me. I can only hope beyond hope that my relationship with my wife can be used of God to be taken notice of by an unbelieving coworker, friend, family member, etc to their eventual conversion. If more Christians would make the move to a truly Biblically based marraige I think a tidal wave of conversions would follow. Shame on us for holding back the wave.

Yours In Christ,
Ron

[melinky]

Ron,

Thanks for sharing. I agree wholeheartedly with all you have said. I think that far too often the focus in the study of Ephesians is on the first part, verses 22-24 with little or no thought at all given to verses 25-31. (Which I think you were pointing out with the italics)

I still don't have a problem with women in leadership roles within the church, but I do think I prefer that within the hierarchy of a church that the main authority in the church be male. Call me a fence-sitter if you wish, but that's what we Methodists do best.

Melinda

[liseux]

Well, I have to say that I agree with most of you here that women are totally equal with men, but that it is not theirs to be in the pulpit.

As a Catholic, our position has been that Jesus chose 12 male apostles, and as RADICAL as he was for his time (eating with sinners, having an ex-prostitute as his friend and follower), one radical move he did not make is to choose a woman as a direct disciple who preaches, annoints, and forgives sins through His power (John 20:21).

As much as I love Mother Angelica of EWTN, even she will admit that her position is not that of the Lord's preacher.

May God bless you all,

Liseux

[Soulfyre]

I think your illustration of Mother Angelica is a case in point. While she does not read the gospel, annoint, or celebrate the Eucharist, she is in many ways a gifted communicator and teacher. Although I also know that within both the Orthodox and Roman Catholic traditions, it is not unheard of for a woman to address the congregation, or even, as a deaconess, to teach, although the pulpit is reserved for the exposition of the gospel message by the priest. It is less an issue of whether women can have authority over a man (an Mother Abbess can have authority over both men and women mendicants), or whether a woman can teach. The the position of priest, understood as being alter christo, that is, as one who stands in the place of Christ offering the Eucharist for the congregation, is seen as unalterably male, as Jesus Christ was male.

The discussion among Protestants (particularly evangelical or historically Christian Protestants) is far different, since the concept of the "priesthood of the believer" is often seen as eclipsing the position of priest, and among whom the Eucharist is viewed as a symbol of the timeless sacrifice of Jesus Christ in which we all participate through faith and not a repeated sacrifice requiring a continuing priesthood (Protestants tend to take Hebrews very seriously), our discussion of female participation is unencumbered by the position of priest, and takes on a different aspect. For historically, women theologians and teachers are far more numerous in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox traditions that in the more orthodox Protestant traditions.

However, I must remind you that your statement "one radical move he did not make is to choose a woman as a direct disciple who preaches, annoints, and forgives sins through His power " is not entirely true. It is true that no woman was chosen among the twelve, but evenn Roman Catholic tradition recognizes Mary Magdalene as "apostle to the apostles", for she was the first person to be commissioned by the resurrected Jesus Christ to "go and tell", and THAT to the apostles themselves. The gospel message is in fact the very heart of preaching. Hence, it is difficult to assume that Jesus Christ NEVER chose a woman to preach, although the context of her preaching and teaching may be arguable.

God bless and keep you always through His Son, Our Saviour, Lord, and High Priest,

Matthew (soulfyre)

[liseux]

Hello Soulfyre,

Thanks for the reply.

However, I must remind you that your statement "one radical move he did not make is to choose a woman as a direct disciple who preaches, anoints, and forgives sins through His power " is not entirely true. It is true that no woman was chosen among the twelve, but Even Roman Catholic tradition recognizes Mary Magdalene as "apostle to the apostles", for she was the first person to be commissioned by the resurrected Jesus Christ to "go and tell", and THAT to the apostles themselves. The gospel message is in fact the very heart of preaching. Hence, it is difficult to assume that Jesus Christ NEVER chose a woman to preach, although the context of her preaching and teaching may be arguable.

People often do "preach" by their actions, as I believe both Mary Magdalene and our Lord's mother both did. But if Christ did choose a woman to go and preach to all nations, side by side with the apostles and their successors such as Mattias, we do not have biblical evidence of it.

Nonetheless, I have truly benefited from women such as Mother Teresa, Mother Angelica, and Joyce Meyer. I hold these women as "teachers" rather than preachers. I'm not sure what Joyce considers herself, but I realize she is a bit controversial in some circles.

May God bless you richly, Soulfyre.

Liseux