i'm going to copy and paste something that i posted in a different forum...so if it sounds like i'm lecturing you, don't take it personally, i was in a heated debate (well...he was more heated than i was hahah). anyway...i thought you guys might like to hear the other view...mine
Romans 8
29For those God foreknew
he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son(in other words, "to be saved"), that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
here's another verse:
Ephesians 1:4-6
4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will– 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
last one
Ephesians 1:10-12 <br>11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
here's my take on this whole thing: we have the free will but every single one of us uses them to reject God. romans says that none of us choose God and that we are unable to do so without his help. consider this verse "by grace are we saved through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God" we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, but look: the faith that we are saved by is a gift of God, we don't have faith by ourselves! the image i get from that is a highschool or junior high classroom. the teacher asks "who can answer the question on the board?" and after no one chooses to answer, so, the teacher calls on someone to answer the question.
the Bible does seem to suggest that we have a free will (even though it doesn't ever say it literally) but it is also very clear that God has a free will also. and obviously his will overpowers ours. consider this long passage (i'm going to break it into sections to explain each part individually)
ROMANS CHAPTER 9
13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
(God's free will over ours)
16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
(this is very interesting. God hardens the hearts of whoever he wants. but then why do those people go to hell if it's not really even thier fault? read on)
19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?
(good question)
“Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
(pay very close attention to this next part)
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory
(so some people are created just so that God can show how merciful he is and some people are created just to show his wrath and power? that fits in to the idea that we were created for his glory)
i know some of you right now are screaming "but that's not fair, God!" but think about this: how do we judge write and wrong; fair and unfair? well, how do we judge if something is 12 inches long or not? we use a ruler because we know that a ruler is always 12 inches long. in the same way, we define right and wrong by what God does and doesn't do. since God is a just God (i'd go so far as to say that God IS justice), we judge fair and unfair by HIS justice and only his. it is a contradiction to call God unfair (besides the fact that it is incredibly arrogant). think of this, do you agree that God knows better than you? and if God knows better than you, then it logically follows that some of His ideas of right and wrong will differ from your views of right and wrong.
(i have more for later but i have to go eat with my family)