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Post by rgrove on Jan 15, 2005 13:35:01 GMT -5
I've purchased the domain name panmillennialism.com so I'm curious what kind of content you would expect to see on such a website. Of course I have my own ideas, but I'd like to make sure that they correspond to what your general Christian websurfer would expect to see there.
I've also purchased postmill.info, amill.info and premill.info. They will be informational sites with more detail about the specific systems than panmillennialism.com. I say that so you know panmillennialism.com doesn't have to be exhaustive on information. Unfortunately premillennialism.com and amillennialism.com are purchased, but don't seem to go anywhere. And postmillennialism.com won't do a thing to help you understand it...
Thank you,
Ron
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Post by fairbank on Feb 5, 2005 19:56:46 GMT -5
On such a site, I believe it would be helpful, perhaps even expected to see a chrological account of what each millennial view believes will happen, including Scripture references. For example: Pre-Mil
I. At the beginning of the millennium, Christ will return and the righteous dead will be raised and judged (Rev 20:4, 2 Cor 5:10, Rom 14:10), antichrist and his hordes will be defeated (Rev 19:11-21), Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit (Rev 20:1-3), and the nations will be judged (Mt 25:31-46).
II. At the end of the millennium, Satan will be released from the pit and the unbelieving dead will be raised and judged (Rev 20:1-15), Satan and all unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire (Mt 25:41,46; Rev 20:10-15), and the old earth will be destroyed (2 Pet 3:10-13).
III. After the millennium the New Heavens and the New Earth will be created (Rev 21-22).
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Post by melinky on Feb 6, 2005 8:49:46 GMT -5
One of the things I've been meaning to do is to find a timeline that shows these differences. Unfortunately, I haven't had time to do so yet, so I'm not even sure if such a thing is out there. This sound like what fairbank is suggesting and I think it is a great idea.
Would such a chronology include the Scriptural references each millenial view bases their belief on? As one who is still coming to her own conclusion, I think this would be very helpful.
Melinda
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Post by rgrove on Feb 7, 2005 12:01:22 GMT -5
On such a site, I believe it would be helpful, perhaps even expected to see a chrological account of what each millennial view believes will happen, including Scripture references. One of the things I've been meaning to do is to find a timeline that shows these differences. Unfortunately, I haven't had time to do so yet, so I'm not even sure if such a thing is out there. This sound like what fairbank is suggesting and I think it is a great idea. Would such a chronology include the Scriptural references each millenial view bases their belief on? As one who is still coming to her own conclusion, I think this would be very helpful. I'll do both of your suggestions. I'll probably have one reasonably short outline of each position that can give a person a good idea of the scriptural case for each. I'll focus a lot of attention on being as clear and consice here as possible since it would likely be the most looked at section if anyone happens by the website. Charts included.  Then I'll probably have some longer, but not overly long, essays on various aspects which become important. I need to figure out how to communicate hermeneutical biases and their importance to people that don't know what that word means. Everyone has them despite protests to the contrary...  Another area I'll give some attention to will be history. Some of the historical claims in some works seriously rub me the wrong way. I don't make my decisions based upon history, but at the same time I consider it something that should be given proper consideration. Another focal point will be to exhort people to balance. It's important not to ignore eschatology, but it's also important not to let it become your sole interest in Christianity. It breaks my heart when people go to either extreme. I know some that completely ignore the entire topic, and it's usually due to overexposure to people who have made it their entire focus.  Obviously they're my primary group of interest with this project. In Christ, Ron |
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Post by melinky on Feb 7, 2005 12:13:48 GMT -5
I was just siiting here thinking about this and thought that along with the supporting scripture for each view, you might also want to think about showing the arguments against each. For example, what scriptural evidence do Pre-millennialists give against the Post-Millennial point of view?
This might be a bit of overkill, but it might also be a good cross-reference.
Melinda
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Post by rgrove on Feb 7, 2005 16:17:09 GMT -5
I was just siiting here thinking about this and thought that along with the supporting scripture for each view, you might also want to think about showing the arguments against each. For example, what scriptural evidence do Pre-millennialists give against the Post-Millennial point of view? This might be a bit of overkill, but it might also be a good cross-reference. Melinda Thank you for the suggestion. I have thought about how to do that as well. It's more difficult than it seems at first and I think you've already seen that. Vern Poythress once wrote in his book for covenentalists "Understanding Dispensationalism" that a "simple refutation" does not exist because dispensationalism is a pretty consistent system internally. He also points out how this is true with the others as well and gives examples of how what would seem like obvious one line criticisms that are expected to end the argument once and for all (on the part of the critic of course) only result in the other party getting a quizical look on their face and respond "you just don't get it do you?" So I'm not exactly sure at this point how to avoid what could easily become an infinite regression of point, counterpoint arguments. Perhaps that's the best one can do, but I'm seeking something better and honestly haven't come to a complete conclusion about that. It may just be a short rebuttal and then another short answer to that rebuttal. But it has to end at some point. What I'm considering as a possible alternative is some form of the following. Go through major texts and outline the exegesis of each of the positions for that text. Sometimes this may actually require presenting a couple of views within an overall view because of the extreme variety within each viewpoint. This doesn't have to be a commentary on entire books, but rather the key passages that are most frequently brought up. That's where I'm leaning right now at least... In Christ, Ron |
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Post by Soulfyre on Feb 7, 2005 17:33:19 GMT -5
You will note I have been careful not to give much advice here, as I honestly am not that much an expert on website and forum development myself. I think the direction you are going is quite good. They are certainly challenging, but given the nature of your posts, I believe you will rise to the challenge. You research well, and I certainly envy your study. I believe if we ever set down together in a good theological library, you could show me areas of study to which I have not even become conversant myself. Would that I had a church with you on the board of elders (although I fear I would be tempted to use you as a crutch rather than a source!). Keep me posted concerning your progress, and I hope to bounce some ideas off of you. God bless you and yours, Matthew (soulfyre)  |
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Post by rgrove on Feb 7, 2005 18:20:05 GMT -5
I have been working on my list of eschatological resources for the site and organizing them by concept. I hope to post it soon so that you and others can recommend other "must have" resources for research of positions. I want a good book list for people to know where to start reading about particular positions. My books have grown out of reading bibliographies. As a matter of fact, as I looked up this post I was looking through the bibliography for one of the three books that arrived today from Amazon. John Frame's "Doctrine of God", William Lane Craig's "The Only Wise God" and "The DaVinci Hoax" by Olson and Miesel. I'm disapointed in the bibliography at the end of Frame's book. I know he referred to more resources than this in the notes, so this may be a boiled down listing or something.  Maybe I can get done with my eschatology list this evening and get it posted for suggestions. In Christ, Ron |
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Post by fairbank on Feb 7, 2005 19:53:27 GMT -5
Ron, you mentioned the use of charts. That would require a lot of horizontal scrolling once you get to the dispensational "fold-out" chart! As the Irish Catholics used to say, "Saints preserve us!"
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Post by rgrove on Feb 7, 2005 20:05:14 GMT -5
Ron, you mentioned the use of charts. That would require a lot of horizontal scrolling once you get to the dispensational "fold-out" chart! As the Irish Catholics used to say, "Saints preserve us!" Hehehe... So True! I'm not really sure if I can make a dispensational chart that would fit horizontally in an 800x600 screen and still have readable writing! ;D |
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Post by rgrove on Feb 8, 2005 2:52:11 GMT -5
I have the following posts in a Word document. I am open to well established, repectable books that I should use for research as well as that could be recommended. I'll just start with my books on eschatology. I don't have as many books on dispensationalism because I didn't have to learn the system. It's what I was originally taught in the SBC church my wife an I went to. It's also easy to find articles online (which none of the following includes). Some materials will eventually be taken from the final list and perhaps some recategorizing would need to be done.
Books Presenting Eschatological Systems
Classical Dispensational Premillennialism
“Dispensationalism (Revised and Expanded)” by Charles C. Ryrie 1995 (Moody, 1995, 0802421873)
“The Prophecy Knowledge Handbook” by John Walvoord (Victor Books, 1990)
“Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology” by Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum (Ariel Ministries, Rev 2001, 0914863053)
“J. Vernon McGee on Prophecy: Man’s Fascination with the Future” by J. Vernon McGee (Thomas Nelson, 1993, 0840767986)
“Rapture: Under Attack” by Tim LaHaye (Multnomah, 1998, 1576733912)
“There’s a New World Coming” by Hal Lindsey (Bantam Books, 1975, 0553245554)
Progressive Dispensational Premillennialism
“Dispensationalism, Israel and the Church” edited by Craig A. Blaising and Darrell L. Bock (Zondervan, 1992, 0310346118)
“Three Central Issues in Contemporary Dispensationalism” Ed. By Herbert W. Bateman (Kregel, 1999, 0825420628)
Historic Premillennialism
“The Presence of the Future(Revised Edition)” by George Eldon Ladd (Eerdman’s Publishing, 1974, 0802815316)
“Millennial Studies: A Search for Truth” by George L. Murray (Baker Book House, 1948, 0801058996)
“Rapture? Sure… But When?” by William E. Anderson (Green Key Books, 2003, 0970599684)
Amillennialism
“The Promise of the Future” by Cornelis P. Venema (Banner of Truth, 2000, 0851517935)
“A Case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times: by Kim Riddlebarger (Baker Books, 2003, 080106435X)
“The End Times Made Simple” by Samuel E. Waldron (Calvary Press, 2003, 1879737507)
“The Coming of the Kingdom” by Herman Ridderbos (P&R, 1962, 6215429)
“The Last Things: Hope for This World and the Next” by Herman Bavinck (Baker Books, 2000 Trans 1928 Ed, 0801020883)
“The Pauline Eschatology: by Geerhardus Vos (P&R, 1994 reprint of 1930)
“The Kingdom of God and the Church” by Geerhardus Vos (Westminster, 0875525024)
“The Time is at Hand” by Jay Adams (Apress, 1966, BT8211A3236)
“Amillennialism Today” by William E. Cox (P&R, 1966, 0875521517)
“The Gospel of the Kingdom” by Philip Mauro (Crown Rights Book Co, 1927 reprint)
“The Momentous Event” by W.J. Grier (Banner of Truth Trust, 1945, 0851510205)
Postmillennialism
“The Victory of Christ’s Kingdom” by John Jefferson Davis (Canon Press, 1996, 1885767226)
“He Shall Have Dominion: A Postmillennial Eschatology (Second Edition)” by Kenneth Gentry Jr. (ICE, 1997, 0930464621)
“Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope” by Keith A. Mathison (P&R, 1999, 0875523897)
“The Puritan Hope” by Iain H. Murray (Banner of Truth, 1971)
“An Eschatology of Victory” by J. Marcellus Kik (P&R, 1971, 0875523137)
"Eschatology of Optimism" by Greg Bahnsen (CMFnow.com MP3 lecture series)
"Why Am I a Postmillennialist?" by Greg Bahnsen (CMFnow.com MP3 lecture series)
"Pessimistic Passages" by Greg Bahnsen (CMFnow.com MP3 lecture series)
"The Nature and the Future of God's Kingdom" by Greg Bahnsen (CMFnow.com MP3 lecture series)
“The Greatness of the Great Commission” by Kenneth Gentry Jr. (ICE, 1990, 0930464508)
“Christ's Second Coming: Will it be Premillennial? (Seventh Edition)” by David Brown (Old Paths Book Club, 1953)
“The Millennium (Revised Edition)” by Loraine Boettner (P&R, Revised 1984, Original 1957)
“A History of the Work of Redemption” by Jonathan Edwards (Hendrickson, 2003 Reprint of 1834 “Works”, 1565630858)
“The Restoration of Israel (3rd Ed)” by Erroll Hulse (Camelot Press, 1982, 0854790004)
“Israel and the New Covenant” by Roderick Campbell (P&R, 1954)
“Thine is the Kingdom: Studies in the Postmillennial Hope” Ed. by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr (Chalcedon Foundation, 2003, 1891375229)
“Paradise Restored: A Biblical Theology of Dominion” by David Chilton (Dominion Press, 1994, 0930462521)
“Messiah the Prince” by William Symington (Still Waters Revival Books, 1884 reprint)
“Dominion & Common Grace: The Biblical Basis of Progress” by Gary North (ICE, 1987)
Multiple Views Expressed in same volume
“The Great Tribulation: Past or Future?” by Thomas Ice & Kenneth Gentry Jr. (Kregel, 1999, 0825429013)
“Three Views on the Millennium and Beyond” Ed by Darrell L. Bock (Zondervan, 1999, 0310201438)
“The Millennial Maze: Sorting out Evangelical Options”by Stanley J. Grenz (InterVarsity, 1992, 0830817573)
Preterist (millennial position isn’t focus of book)
“Perilous Times: A Study in Eschatological Evil” by Kenneth L. Gentry Jr. (Covenant Media Press, 1999, 0967831709)
“The Beast of Revelation (Revised Edition)” by Kenneth Gentry Jr. (American Vision, 2002, 0915815419)
“Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation” by Kenneth Gentry Jr. (American Vision, Rev 1998, 0915815311)
“End Times Fiction” by Gary DeMar (Thomas Nelson, 2001, 0785266429)
“Last Days Madness: Obsession of the Modern Church” by Gary DeMar (American Vision, 1999, 0915815354)
“The Last Days According to Jesus” by R.C. Sproul (Baker Books, 1998, 080101171X)
“The Destruction of Jerusalem” by George Peter Holford (CMP, 1805 reprint)
“The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation” by Philip Mauro (Crown Rights Book Co, 1944 reprint)
Critiques of Classical Dispensationalism
“Understanding Dispensationalists (Second Ed)” by Vern S. Poythress (P&R, 1994, 0875523749)
“Darby, Dualism and the Decline of Dispensationalism” by Ronald M. Henzel (Fenestra Books, 2003)
“Dispensationalism: Rightly Dividing the People of God?” by Keith A. Mathison (P&R, 1995, 0875523595)
“Dispensationalism: Today, Yesterday and Tomorrow” by Curtis I. Crenshaw and Grover E. Gunn, III (Footstool, 1989, 1877818011)
Eschatological History
“The Hope of the Early Church: A Handbook of Patristic Eschatology” by Brian E. Daley (Hendrickson, 2003)
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Post by rgrove on Feb 8, 2005 2:57:34 GMT -5
Here are the Systematic Theologies that I have that take identifiable positions. I have others from earlier eras that are difficult to categorize because current distinctions weren't as aparent at the time. Also, If I missed any popular current Systematics. I have my eyes on a couple, but only have so much $$$. Dispensational Premillennialism“Basic Theology” by Charles C. Ryrie (Moody, 1999, 0802427340, Baptistic) “Systematic Theology” by Ernest S. Williams (Gospel, 1953, Assemblies of God) “Systematic Theology” Ed. By Stanley M. Horton (Gospel, 1995, 088243319, Assemblies of God) Historic Premillennialism“Christian Theology (2nd Ed)” by Millard J. Erickson (Baptist) “Systematic Theology” by Wayne Grudem (Baptistic/Charismatic) Amillennialism“A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith” by Robert L. Reymond (Thomas Nelson, 1998, 0849913179, Presbyterian) “Systematic Theology” by Louis Berkhof (Presbyterian) “Systematic Theology: Life in the Spirity” by Thomas C. Oden (HarperSanFancisco, 1992, 0060663626, Methodist) “Christian Dogmatics” by John Theodore Mueller (Lutheran) “The Christian Religion in its Doctrinal Expression” by E.Y. Mullins (Judson Press, 1917, 0817000429, Southern Baptist) “Elements of Divinity” by Thomas N. Ralston (Convention Press, 1971 reprint of 1924, Methodist) Postmillennialism“Systematic Theology” by Charles Hodge (Hendrickson, 2003 reprint , 1565634594, Presbyterian) “Fundamental Christian Theology: A Systematic Theology” by A.M. Hills (C.J. Klinne, 1931, Methodist) “Systematic Theology” by A.H. Strong (Judson Press, reprint 1907, 0817001778, Baptist) “Abstract of Systematic Theology” by James P. Boyce (den Dulk Christian Foundation, 1887, 0875528724, Southern Baptist) “Manual of Theology” by J.L. Dagg (Southern Baptist) “Systematic Theology” by John Miley (Hendrickson, 1989 reprint from 1893, 0943575095, Methodist) |
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Post by rgrove on Feb 8, 2005 3:01:26 GMT -5
I'm admittedly weak on commentaries. I prefer to read the Bible without too much commentary. I look things up in Matthew Henry if I'm not sure, but have picked up a few for some aspects of them or research for classes I've conducted in the past.
Dispensational Premillennialism
“The Bible Knowledge Commentary: New Testament” Ed. by Walvoord/Zuck
“Thru the Bible with J. Vernon McGee: Genesis-Revelation”<br>“Be Loyal: A New Testament Study – Matthew” by Warren W. Wiersbe
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ” by John Walvoord
“Thy Kingdom Come: Matthew” by John Walvoord
Historic Premillennialism
“The Treasury of David: Classic Reflections on the Wisdom of the Psalms” by Charles H. Spurgeon
“Expository Thoughts on Matthew” by J.C. Ryle
“A Commentary on the Revelation of John” by George Eldon Ladd
Amillennialism
“An Exposition of the Four Gospels: Matthew” by Herschel H. Hobbs
“The Returning King: A Guide to the book of Revelation” by Vern S. Poythress
“More than Conquerors: An Interpretation of the Book of Revelation” by William Hendrickson
“The Cosmic Drama: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation” by Herschel H. Hobbs
Postmillennialism
“Commentary on the Whole Bible” by Matthew Henry
“Psalms” by David Dickson
“Commentary on Isaiah” by Joseph A. Alexander
“Thy Kingdom Come: Studies in Daniel and Revelation” by Rousas John Rushdoony
“Commentary on Matthew” by John A. Broadus
“The Epistle to the Romans” by John Murray
“The Message from Patmos: A Postmillennial Commentary on the Book of Revelation” by David S. Clark
“The Days of Vengence: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation” by David Chilton
“Back to the Future: A Study in the Book of Revelation” by Ralph E. Bass, Jr (Living Hope Press, 2004)
Parallel Commentaries
“Revelation: Four Views – A parallel Commentary” Ed. by Steve Gregg
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Post by fairbank on Feb 8, 2005 20:31:01 GMT -5
Excellent Ron. Can't go wrong with Matthew Henry...a great puritan.
Eric
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Post by melinky on Feb 8, 2005 21:56:58 GMT -5
Ron,
I can't help but be impressed at your list. If I tried to read all of that, I might finish by the time I turned 90. I really admire your willingness to search for your answers rather than simply accepting an idea because you heard it somewhere.
Melinda
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Obviously they're my primary group of interest with this project.
