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Post by Kenny on Dec 11, 2004 21:04:29 GMT -5
Thoughts?
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Post by melinky on Dec 12, 2004 18:19:14 GMT -5
Ahh, the age-old question... If God knows what you will do before you do it, how can you have free-will? If you truly have free-will, then how can God possibly know what you're going to do before you do it? And if everything is pre-destined, what's the point?
This is my theory, and I have to warn you that I REALLY have a hard time verbalizing my thoughts on this subject, so if I'm unclear, please feel free to ask.
Free-will and predestination were topics that, quite frankly, made my head spin until New Year's Eve of 2003/04. My church has a Watch-Night service in our Upper Room Chapel that I attended last year for the first time. During the service, our Pastor spoke of two different kinds of time. Earthly time and God's time, or Kairos. The idea, as I remember it, of Kairos time is that God transcends time, in other words, He doesn't live in little 24-hour chunks of time like we do. He lives in the past, present and future all at once. Therefore, it would stand to reason that He can know past, present and future all at once, leaving us free to make our own choices, hence, free-will. The only Earthly comparison I can think of would be the experience of deja vous, that feeling of having lived a currently happening situation before.
Another way to explain the theory of Kairos would be to consider Earthly time to be linear with a distinct beginning and end. Kairos, on the other hand is circular, no beginning, no end, all time rolled up into one big ball of time and experience happening simultaneously.
So in a nutshell, I believe in free-will rather than predestination. I also believe that free-will is necessary for our relationship with God. I believe he wants us to come to him of our own free will, not because we have to or because it's in the "script", but because we want to be in relationship with Him.
I think the first example of free will goes all the way back to the first sin, that of eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Eve, and then Adam, ate the fruit of their own free will. If they had obeyed God's will or lived according to the plan God had for them, they would never have gone near that tree.
I hope this made some sort of sense.
Yours in Christ,
Melinda
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Post by worthily on Dec 18, 2004 10:54:20 GMT -5
Ecc 10:10 If the iron be blunt, and he do not whet the edge, then must he put to more strength: but wisdom is profitable to direct.
Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
2Th 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
vs.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
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Post by Soulfyre on Dec 18, 2004 18:47:42 GMT -5
Ahh, the age-old question... If God knows what you will do before you do it, how can you have free-will? If you truly have free-will, then how can God possibly know what you're going to do before you do it? And if everything is pre-destined, what's the point? This is my theory, and I have to warn you that I REALLY have a hard time verbalizing my thoughts on this subject, so if I'm unclear, please feel free to ask. Free-will and predestination were topics that, quite frankly, made my head spin until New Year's Eve of 2003/04. My church has a Watch-Night service in our Upper Room Chapel that I attended last year for the first time. During the service, our Pastor spoke of two different kinds of time. Earthly time and God's time, or Kairos. The idea, as I remember it, of Kairos time is that God transcends time, in other words, He doesn't live in little 24-hour chunks of time like we do. He lives in the past, present and future all at once. Therefore, it would stand to reason that He can know past, present and future all at once, leaving us free to make our own choices, hence, free-will. The only Earthly comparison I can think of would be the experience of deja vous, that feeling of having lived a currently happening situation before. Another way to explain the theory of Kairos would be to consider Earthly time to be linear with a distinct beginning and end. Kairos, on the other hand is circular, no beginning, no end, all time rolled up into one big ball of time and experience happening simultaneously. So in a nutshell, I believe in free-will rather than predestination. I also believe that free-will is necessary for our relationship with God. I believe he wants us to come to him of our own free will, not because we have to or because it's in the "script", but because we want to be in relationship with Him. I think the first example of free will goes all the way back to the first sin, that of eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Eve, and then Adam, ate the fruit of their own free will. If they had obeyed God's will or lived according to the plan God had for them, they would never have gone near that tree. This will, of course, sound like precarious fence-straddling (which, if one slips, can be most devastating), but I believe that the "problem" is, in fact, one that is more particular to a Hellenistic (or Western) world view. We are often caught on the horns of our own dilemma, because we are, in fact, a part of linear existence, and are finite. I cannot say how an infinite God experiences time. He created the method by which human kind could "number" their days, creating the lights in heaven in such a manner as to be as signs to mark seasons, days and years. When the disciples iniquired, immediately prior to the ascension of Jesus Christ into heaven, if he would at that time restore the kingdom of heaven to Israel, Jesus did not respond with a disseration on the difference between time as experienced by God and time as experienced by humankind. He said, simply, that it was not for them "to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority." Elsewhere Paul said, "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Romansn 8:28-30) Two things should be observed: the past tense of the verbs in question, and the Biblical use of the word "foreknow". The past tense establishes a sense in which all these things are accomplished fact. Although we may see the progress of this decree in time, its surety is based upon the choice made by God. None whom God foreknew fail to be predestined, called, justified, and glorified...NONE. But what is foreknowledge? First, may I say that it is not used in the Bible in the sense that God peered down the corridors of time to see who would and who wouldn't accept him, and then in a contingent manner, fashioned the universe and his plan accordingly. "Foreknow" is used in a manner similar to "foreordain". God's knowing is inherently creative, as his speaking establishes reality. Then, you might rightly ask, how are our choices significant? What are we other than a dream of God, not unlike the Maya of Hindu belief...merely shadows of God's thinking process? How can we, in any meaningful way, "choose"? The answer is not easy, although it is clear to see that all of the Bible points toward responsible and significant human choice, that effects history. I don't believe that this issue is one that is inherently reconcilable starting only from ourselves plus time. We are creatures in time, created with eternity in our hearts. Yet God will be forever infinite, and even when glorified, we will have had a beginning, and thus will be finite, even though we will have eternal life. When the Bible speaks of such things as election, it uses the concept in two distinct ways: it speaks of the elect people of God (hence the chosen entity is a group), and thus we experience God's election as a part of his people, the church; and it speaks of God's choosing individuals for specific service to him. This second use is not generally used in terms of salvation, only the first. I believe, to paraphrase Francis Schaeffer, that God, in his infinity, was able to create a human being with true significance (whose choices affected history), without putting chance behind himself (without God making himself subordinate to chance). And how he accomplished this is a myster hidden in the infinity that is our God. God bless and keep you, Matthew (soulfyre) P.S. I would not say God's sense of time is circular (although I understand your used of the illustration, as "circular" often implies "reciprocating"). But I do believe God is capable of experience on a dimension of fullness unfettered by the shackles of linear time. This, however, is speculation. |
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Post by worthily on Dec 19, 2004 2:23:35 GMT -5
perhaps i should have clarified what can be discerned from what i posted but i will give a chance for other people to discern from what i am posting first before elaborating.
Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Num 16:28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
im citing these [passages] as to give hints to how God has mapped this world to his liking and the tools to use to know the paths that has been shaped given within boundaries, directions, and final destinations
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Post by melinky on Dec 19, 2004 22:49:24 GMT -5
perhaps i should have clarified what can be discerned from what i posted but i will give a chance for other people to discern from what i am posting first before elaborating. Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. Num 16:28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind. Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. im citing these [passages] as to give hints to how God has mapped this world to his liking and the tools to use to know the paths that has been shaped given within boundaries, directions, and final destinations  Is this a test??? LOL Quite honestly, I'm not seeing the connection between these verses and predestination vs. free-will, but keep in mind it's late, my eyes are only half open (I'm thanking God for the ability to be able to type without looking at the keys) and I think my brain is a bit on the dead side. So in an effort to be fair, I'm going to have to revisit this again when I have a few moments to do so. Meanwhile, I'd be intersted in hearing/reading the thoughts that go along with these passages. This will, of course, sound like precarious fence-straddling (which, if one slips, can be most devastating), but I believe that the "problem" is, in fact, one that is more particular to a Hellenistic (or Western) world view. We are often caught on the horns of our own dilemma, because we are, in fact, a part of linear existence, and are finite. I cannot say how an infinite God experiences time. He created the method by which human kind could "number" their days, creating the lights in heaven in such a manner as to be as signs to mark seasons, days and years. When the disciples iniquired, immediately prior to the ascension of Jesus Christ into heaven, if he would at that time restore the kingdom of heaven to Israel, Jesus did not respond with a disseration on the difference between time as experienced by God and time as experienced by humankind. He said, simply, that it was not for them "to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority."… P.S. I would not say God's sense of time is circular (although I understand your used of the illustration, as "circular" often implies "reciprocating"). But I do believe God is capable of experience on a dimension of fullness unfettered by the shackles of linear time. This, however, is speculation. Matthew, Yeah! That's it! Rather than linear and circular, I think finite and infinite might be better descriptors. Also, I'm with you in that I can't possibly know or understand how God experiences time. The one thing I can say for sure is that it doesn't matter to me if my life is planned out to the nano-second or if I'm running willy-nilly through this life. Either way, my faith and trust is in Jesus Christ who will not lead me the wrong way. I will follow the Good Shepherd through this life, trying my best as an imperfect human to be one of His sheep. It is enough to know that He stands as the gate, holding it open with a loving smile of welcome on His face; all I have to do is be a sheep. Worthily, did I get the John 10:7-9 part? Yours in Christ, Melinda |
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Post by Kenny on Dec 21, 2004 18:20:31 GMT -5
The dilema is not if God knows, but if God makes us. Predesination is not God knowing, because we know he knows the future; but, rather if he makes us do things as if we are puppets.
Many, many, many people always start out their discussion with the word "know" when that is not what it is about at all. The question is whether or not God controls us, not if God knows what we are going to do.
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Post by melinky on Dec 21, 2004 20:17:42 GMT -5
Kenny,
That's a good point. I think what I struggle with is whether or not all of my decisions have already been made. I've always looked at life as a path along which there are many forks. Choose the path to the right and you get choices A and B further down the path. Choose the path to the left and you get choices C and D further down the path. Sometimes the paths lead back to the original path and sometimes they shoot off into entirely different directions. So if our paths are always chosen before our birth, there would theoretically be no paths, just a straight line, which brings up something else. If our decisions have been made before we are born, then nothing anyone says or does can change the outcome of my life. You can try to bring me to Christ, but if I'm predestined to die a sinner, nothing you do is going to change that.
As I was typing that out, it came to me, just because God knows what we'll do before we do it, doesn't mean that we have no choice; it's just known to God. Whew! This stuff hurts my head, but I like it! (That is to say that I love to ponder on this stuff; I really don't like headaches.)
Kenny, once again, thanks for the different spin on this subject.
Melinda
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Post by Kenny on Dec 21, 2004 22:22:51 GMT -5
That is exactly my point. I am for both predestination and free will. Before you attack me let me explain myself. As a sixteen-year-old boy I have not pondered the matter as much as soulfyre probably has, but here is my take on it.
We have free will within a boundry of God's will. Our freewill can never go outside God's ultimate plan, but we can wander inside of God's will with different choices.
Like a horse within a fence. The horse can wander inside the fenced area as much and go anywhere within that area, but it cannot go outside the fence.
Also, the fact that God made Adam and Eve sin, the fact that he made every murderer murder somone, the fact that God would 'make' some of these people do the things they do utterly contradicts God's nature of inability to look upon sin. So, if God unable to look upon sin how in the world can he possible make someone sin? I believe total predestination is contradictory to the nature of God and that although the words 'free will' do not appear in the bible while 'predestined' does it does not ordain the belief on predesination in anyway that the Calvanists describe it.
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Post by melinky on Dec 21, 2004 22:34:15 GMT -5
That is exactly my point. I am for both predestination and free will. Before you attack me let me explain myself. As a sixteen-year-old boy I have not pondered the matter as much as soulfyre probably has, but here is my take on it. We have free will within a boundry of God's will. Our freewill can never go outside God's ultimate plan, but we can wonder inside of God's will with different choices. Like a horse within a fence. The horse can wonder inside the fenced area as much and go anywhere within that area, but it cannot go outside the fence. Also, the fact that God made Adam and Eve sin, the fact that he made every murderer murder somone, the fact that God would 'make' some of these people do the things they do utterly contradicts God's nature of unable to look upon sin. So, if God unable to look upon sin how in the world can he possible make someone sin? I believe total predestination is contradictory to the nature of God and that although the words 'free will' do not appear in the bible while 'predestined' does it does not ordain the belief on predesination in anyway that the Calvanists describe it. Are you sure you're only sixteen?  LOL The spiritual maturity of the young people on this board astound me. I'm 46, and I'm just beginning to have a rudimentary grasp of some of this stuff. I wish I hadn't been so blind for so many years. Your ideas make sense to me, though I can't say whether or not they are valid, I tend to think that no one knows for sure simply because we cannot begin to fathom the depth of God's wisdom. Melinda |
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Post by Kenny on Dec 21, 2004 22:58:24 GMT -5
Are you sure you're only sixteen? LOL The spiritual maturity of the young people on this board astound me. I'm 46, and I'm just beginning to have a rudimentary grasp of some of this stuff. I wish I hadn't been so blind for so many years. Your ideas make sense to me, though I can't say whether or not they are valid, I tend to think that no one knows for sure simply because we cannot begin to fathom the depth of God's wisdom. Melinda That is true. In the commentaries that the opposing parties have read they simply explain away the fact that we cannot fathom God and that predesination appears to be contradictory to us, but yet is a paradox, because God is unfathomable. I say they are beating around the bush, but, there is no way to prove either side. I am not overly biased and my brain is not closed out - it is just that I have not heard any other arguement for predestination that has over the ill-logic and paradoxical stigma of pure predestination. |
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Post by Soulfyre on Dec 26, 2004 11:27:12 GMT -5
I believe total predestination is contradictory to the nature of God and that although the words 'free will' do not appear in the bible while 'predestined' does it does not ordain the belief on predesination in anyway that the Calvanists describe it. Actually, even those who believe in "dual predestination" (that is, that some are predestined to hell and some are predestined to heaven) would not at any point say that God coerces belief. The issue is a little more complex than that. Many would in fact argue that to create with the knowledge aforehand that something is to occur is, in fact, "predestining" that occurance, although in the case of human choice, it would still be considered and uncoerced choice. One of the most difficult passages in the Bible is John 6. Read it, interact with it, and let me know how you reconcile such verses as John 6:25, 44, and 61-65? Or what about Romans 9 (always a head-spinner for me)? From your friendly burr under the saddle, Matthew (soulfyre)  |
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Post by rgrove on Dec 29, 2004 17:02:47 GMT -5
I feel the title to this thread is a bit premature. Before taking sides, definitions of "predestination" and "free will" should be agreed upon or participants understandings of the terms should be stated up front. The term "predestination" carries numerous silent presuppositions for most people. So does the term "free will". For example, depending on the definition I will either accept "free will", or I will reject it as an invention of fallen man. www.monergism.com/This is a website that has a lot of links to articles on the issue from a reformed perspective. It's updated regularly at this time (I find link sites occassionally stop becoming useful when the person maintaining it burns out on keeping things updated). Hope some articles there may help someone in their search for God's truth. I also recommend looking at confessions and seeing what they say. Generally speaking, a lot of thought and debate went into the major confessions out there. The good ones will also give proofs and that can help. Start by looking at the ones for your church tradition and then move on to other traditions. If you need a starting place, here is a link to my churches confession, which is the 1689 London Baptist Confession: www.art-brand.com/glencullen/confession.htmlIn Christ, Ron |
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Post by Kenny on Dec 30, 2004 1:31:31 GMT -5
I feel the title to this thread is a bit premature. In Christ, Ron 
/me Kenny pounces back towards the apologetics section, stays there and waits for unsuspecting prey. |
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Post by worthily on Dec 30, 2004 7:26:16 GMT -5
i want to spur this conversation---
Ok, one of the many questions in regard to this topic is usually pointed towards someone who reaps a "bad" end. Regardless of my position, the question arises from a question such as the following:
Was Judas Iscariot chosen from the beginning to betray Jesus Christ?
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Is this a test??? LOL
LOL The spiritual maturity of the young people on this board astound me. I'm 46, and I'm just beginning to have a rudimentary grasp of some of this stuff. I wish I hadn't been so blind for so many years.
