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Post by rgrove on Jun 29, 2005 17:29:34 GMT -5
Here are the Christian recording artist Steve Camp's words about the last Billy Graham meeting. I must admit I have not been a fan of Billy Graham at all, so what happened when he gave fawned over two people (the Clintons) who are doing their best to run this country in the proverbial toilet, as well as pronounce Bill Clinton as one with the gifts of being an evangelist, well, it only confirmed my problems with him. a1m.org/page.php?page=template1.php&pageid=805f6e5e481f43431a4a3a407713cadeWhat do you think? Yours In Christ, Ron
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Post by Alejandro on Jun 30, 2005 10:10:26 GMT -5
I am not so sure we should be worried about the systems of this world, as much as we are worried about the next world. The Clintons who attempted to "run this country in proverbial toilet" should be seen as the past, history and as such we should not look back on it, lest we should turn into a pillar of salt.
The author takes the place of God by saying:
How does the author know this? As far as I can tell, God judges people differently than people do (1Sam 16:7. And God is the only one who is able to look into the hearts of man and know their true intentions, and then judge them accordingly (1 Cor 4:15).
Perhaps what Mr. Graham did not mean gifts of the Spirit, but rather a gift of rhetoric that is sought after by all of those who enter into the evangelism. We may never know now. If he does have the gift of the Spirit, who is to say he does not? If he does not use the gift he has, does this mean he does not have it? Has anyone seen the fruit that has come from it if he has used the gift? Probably not. None of use see him 100% of the time, or hear of 100% of the things he does--only God does. He is, however, aiding in the tsunami relief effort--maybe that is his evangelism.
I have to admit that I am no fan of "wam-bam-you're-saved-if-you-come-up-here-right-now" evangelism. But this stance taken against Mr. Graham, and Mr. Clinton is uncalled for. We must forgive one another; we must not hold their sin against them. Jesus did no such thing, lest none of us should be here today. I must also admit that mixing government and God is a far-cry from what God has called us to do, so for that I do see some wrong; but hold it against him I will not. Even if Mr. Graham's motives were for political, or monetary gain; Christ is still being preached, so I rejoice (Phil1:16-18).
Mr. Graham was "too quick to forgive Mr. Clinton just weeks after the Monica Lewinsky scandal broke". When should we forgive people? Months? Years? Just before they die?
Be blessed, Alejandro
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Post by rgrove on Jun 30, 2005 10:45:41 GMT -5
I am not so sure we should be worried about the systems of this world, as much as we are worried about the next world. I can't agree. God is reconciling this world to himself gradually through the cross of Christ. He has commanded we be salt of the earth and a light on the hilltops. He said " The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened." This clearly means that the kingdom of heaven is to work in the world gradually and that it is to have an impact on the world around it. I will not abandon any aspect of life, especially politics, to Satan. I expect to see success for the gospel here as well because Christ also said " I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." The church is always to be marching forwards vanquishing the defeated enemy as he goes because not even the gates of hell itself can defeat the advancement of His kingdom. If we ignore history, we are at peril to repeat it. Lot and his family were commanded not to look back. We have not been commanded not to look back at history and learn from it. I don't believe this passage applies to the current context. Agreed, we don't know for sure. But scripture gives us guidence about what the fruits of true, God given repentence are. I would say that we have not seen such fruit from Clinton, but rather a spirit of defiance. You must have a better opinion of rhetoric than I do. I would hope that a true evangelist would seek after a humble and contrite spirit before God and throw himself upon His mercy at all times rather than seeking skill in rhetoric. I will grant that Bill Clinton has a great deal of skill in wordsmithing and rhetoric. Does he show the fruits of the spirit? Does he follow Jesus' commandments? That is how we are commanded to discern a true believer from a non-believer or a mere professor. Then we are here agreed. Fruit is sorely lacking. To make a statement like Graham made about a man who does not appear to bear the fruits of the spirit is irresponsible. So have many atheists. Taking a high profile role in something doesn't indicate anything. He also has not used any of that position to further the gospel and has only taken the position in a purely secular context. Evangelism is spreading the good news of the gospel. This is properly done with aid effort, but aid effort alone does not constitute any form of evangelism because the very term requires the presence of the Salvation made possible to the world in the person of the God-Man Jesus Christ. Again, always glad to agree on things. Darn, back to disagreement already... Forgiveness does not mean that we forget what they have done. We are always to demonstrate a discerning spirit towards all things. This is not holding sin "against" someone, but rather proper caution. I refer to my comments above. I do not believe we are called to abandon any aspect of life to Satan, but rather to take up the Cross of Christ and seek to sanctify every aspect of life via it. This includes governement and philosophy. Agreed. I also rejoice over all things he has done for the advancement of the kingdom of God, but I will still learn from his mistakes and I believe this to be one of them. His most serious problem, however, is still his universalism. Yours In Christ, Ron
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Post by Alejandro on Jun 30, 2005 14:44:26 GMT -5
He is a univeralist? I had no idea. I thought he anabapist or something of that nature.
When I said we should not look at the past, I admit I should have worded it far better. But, what's done is done. What was meant is linger on it. Ignoring the past will more than likely lead to blindness, and an reenactment of that past event. I do agree with you there.
We have not seen much fruit from Mr. Clinton, granted. This does not mean there isn't any. I am sure that there are Christians that walk among us whose fruit will never be seen by your or I. But in the Kingdom of God they will be brightly shining. This is not to say that Mr. Clinton has fruit, or will be in Heaven, only God knows. And yes, his improper relationship with his wife, and sin has hindered him much according to God's word.
You are right in saying true evangelists should not seek to find the right words, but rather seek the Spirit of God to give him the right words. We must humble ourselves, all of us, and set aside our will so that God's maybe done through us.
You are right, forgiveness does not mean forgetting. And ,again, you are correct: we must use the discernment that God has made available to us. The article, seemed to me, as if it were not having a discerning spirit, but rather a bit of a spiteful one. They did not seem to show anything that Mr. Graham has done right, but rather just showing one side to the situation.
I did not mean philosophy when I wrote it, I meant God. I believe God has nothing to do with the politics of man. We are certainly called to live lives accordingly with the Word of God, and seek Christ in all things--religion, government, philosophy all incuded. I do not believe in abandoning something. My problem is that is was created. I know I sound a bit like an Idealist, but nonetheless, politics of man and God have nothing to do with each other--that is my stance.
Be blessed, Alejandro
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Post by rgrove on Jun 30, 2005 15:43:34 GMT -5
Practically speaking. He's been very heavily influenced by post Vatican II Catholics on this point. Sadly many Christians would agree with him on this front, but also, very few are willing to be openly critical of him. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. We've both stated our cases and that's okay. I'm used to disagreeing with fellow Christians on this point. It's merely my postmillennialism showing through... Yours In Christ, Ron
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