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Post by Kenny on Dec 21, 2004 23:01:42 GMT -5
Yes, the very complex, compelling book of the future. Do you believe this is a prohphecy of our future, or a prophecy of an attack on the Roman empire during the time of the author? What do you believe the symbols mean? How do you decipher the judgements? Are there symbols within the judgements?
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Post by worthily on Dec 22, 2004 6:16:42 GMT -5
personally, i dont understand why people reguard the prophecy of God's wrath as being complex. i mainly look upon the intention that God ultimately is determined to have accomplished. People add complexity to discernment and interpretation when they add grace and long suffering into account upon generations upon generations of people and using that as tool to reason a never ending deferrment of God's wrath. The following is a prime example:
After the flood:
Gen 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
After Jesus Christ died, rose, and ascended:
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. ---------------------------------------------------------------- most people reguard the above as being reason for continual deferrment but look at the following:
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts
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Post by Soulfyre on Dec 22, 2004 10:14:30 GMT -5
personally, i dont understand why people reguard the prophecy of God's wrath as being complex. While I agree that many approach the topic of God's wrath in an overly complex manner, I believe that the Bible teaches about such things as "the day of the Lord" or "day of wrath" in a relatively unambiguous manner. The question, however, is what does the Book of Revelation teach? Any ideas, people? God bless and keep you, Matthew (soulfyre)
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Post by rgrove on Dec 22, 2004 14:36:50 GMT -5
It looks like you've been doing some good research Kenny or you wouldn't a question like this. :-) The popular eschatology of the day considers a question like this heresy, but in the past it wasn't so. Even today many are returning to a partial-preterist understanding that was once common. As a result historic, Biblical, partial-preterist amillenialism and postmillenialism are rising in popularity again. I am a partial-preterist myself. I believe that Revelation and the olivete discourse (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) is mostly prophecy fulfilled in the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, not something we should expect to see in the future. For quality work on this topic I would recommend the following books: *invaluable* - "Revelation: Four Views : A Parallel Commentary" - Steven Gregg. This is a commentary of Revelation that contains all of the major viewpoints verse by verse in parallel to one another. Excellent. Also points out how much variety exists inside the different understandings in each category. Here are two Excellent, short introductions to partial-preterist postmillenial teaching: "The Victory of Christ's Kingdom: An introduction to Postmillenialism" - John J. Davies "Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope" - Keith Mathison And this would be a partial preterist Amill into: "The Time Is at Hand" - Jay Adams Kenneth Gentry's works are must reads. There is much more by Genty than listed here. These are the ones I would almost consider required reading for serious understanding of the position. Go to www.kennethgentry.com for further works. "He Shall Have Dominion: Postmillennial Eschatology (2d ed.)" - Kenneth Gentry "Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation (3rd edition)" - Kenneth Gentry "Perilous Times: A Study In Eschatological Evil" - Kenneth Gentry. Forward by R.C. Sproul. "The Great Tribulation: Past Or Future?" - Kenneth Gentry and Dispensationalist Tommy Ice debate topic "The Beast of Revelation (Revised and Updated)" - Kenneth Gentry. The video on his website "The Beast of Revelation: Identified" is based on this and an excellent introduction to identifying Nero as the Beast of Revelation. "End Times Fiction" - Gary DeMar (visit the American Vision website at www.americanvision.org for many more relevant works) Covenant Media Foundation has an excellent exposition of Revelation by the late Greg Bahnsen in MP3 format at www.cmfnow.com/subcat.asp?0=207 although it costs quite a bit. You can order just the MP3 files of the verses you are interested in, though. Also of note here are a few defenses of postmillenialism called: "Why Am I a Postmillennialist?" "Eschatology of Optimism" "Pessimistic Passages" - deals with what appear to make postmillenial thought implausible. "The Nature and the Future of God's Kingdom" Some other important works with a partial preterist understanding are: "Eschatology of Victory" - Marcellus J. Kik "Last Days According to Jesus" - R.C. Sproul "Message From Patmos" - David Clark Be aware in researching this that there are people that believe that the second advent happened at the fall of Jerusalem. The names I've listed above for research are all thoroughly orthodox in their belief that the second advent is still in the future. Gentry and others call the group I've warned of hyper-preterists. In Christ, Ron
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Post by melinky on Dec 22, 2004 20:18:40 GMT -5
Goodness, that's a lot of reading. I fear I'll never understand it enough to have a cohesive opinion of my own. Oh well, one page at a time...
Melinda
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Post by Kenny on Dec 22, 2004 20:38:15 GMT -5
I have a good understanding of it all, just getting conversations going. I think I will look into that Kenny guy...
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Post by rgrove on Dec 23, 2004 11:41:40 GMT -5
Goodness, that's a lot of reading. I fear I'll never understand it enough to have a cohesive opinion of my own. Oh well, one page at a time... Melinda Don't worry about that. The only book on that list that I consider to be invaluable is the one I marked *invaluable*. ;D The rest I provided so that if someone happens to have a serious interest they can have a good starting point. Steve Gregg did an excellent job of finding excellent Protestant scholarship and providing that commentary in separate columns sorted by category. He's a seminary instructor that was surprised when he just couldn't find a balanced treatement of all the views for his classes on Revelation. So he did his best to make his own. For instance, Chapters 4-19 are separated into the four historic ways of approaching these chapters. Historicist, Idealist, Futurist and Preterist. You will find some very interesting insights in each of them. When you get to Chapter 20, however, those four no longer appear and you get Premillenial, Amillenial and Postmillenial commentary. Then Chapters 20 and 21 have their own controversies and they're evaluated appropriately. I personally believe he has done a wonderfully evenhanded job in presenting the views. Of course space is always an issue and he didn't want to make a 1000 page book, so not every personal favorite point will be made in every case, but such is the case with all books... If anyone chooses to get this book only, they will have a wealth of good information to move forward with. In Christ, Ron
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Post by rgrove on Dec 23, 2004 11:43:20 GMT -5
I have a good understanding of it all, just getting conversations going. I think I will look into that Kenny guy... I hope you find him worthy of the name! At the very least, his work will make you think deeply about your positions on eschatology. Iron sharpens iron. In Christ, Ron
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Post by worthily on Dec 23, 2004 12:05:41 GMT -5
nice analogy Rgrove.
Ecc 10:10 If the iron be blunt, and he do not whet the edge, then must he put to more strength: but wisdom is profitable to direct.
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Post by worthily on Dec 29, 2004 12:53:43 GMT -5
does anyone know, not what but why the writing on the wall that is depicted in the book of Daniel and the meaning behind it? and state why that number would then be depicted in Rev 13:18 without going into the specific depicting of the person given.
please do not repeat someone elses words and works but give me your understanding given. here is basically almost all of it:
Dan 5:24 Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written. Dan 5:25 And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.
Dan 5:26 This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it. Dan 5:27 TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting. Dan 5:28 PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the (Medes and Persians).
i added the last part for it is not relavant to the point being made and we can get back to it for it has signifigance if speaking in terms of (Gabriel and Michael) vs non-earthly (prince of persia) and non-earthily (king of grecia).
We can come closer to an understanding of God's wrath, well that is if you want to for this is just a sliver.
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Post by melinky on Dec 29, 2004 13:40:32 GMT -5
does anyone know, not what but why the writing on the wall that is depicted in the book of Daniel and the meaning behind it? and state why that number would then be depicted in Rev 13:18 please do not repeat someone elses words and works but give me your understanding given. here is basically almost all of it: Dan 5:24 Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written. Dan 5:25 And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. Dan 5:26 This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it. Dan 5:27 TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting. Dan 5:28 PERES; Thy kingdom is divided For the record:
“Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.†(Rev. 13:18, KJV)
“Here is the wisdom! He who is having the understanding, let him count the number of the beast, for the number of a man it is, and its number [is] six hundred and sixty six.†(Rev. 13:18, YNG)I'm sure I'm missing something that is as plain as the nose on my face. But I don't see a number in the scripture from Daniel, nor do I find any cross-reference to Rev 13:18. I do find a cross reference from Rev 13:18 to Dan 8:15 “‘And it cometh to pass in my seeing — I, Daniel — the vision, that I require understanding, and lo, standing over-against me [is] as the appearance of a mighty one.†(Dan. 8:15, YNG) “While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man.†(Dan. 8:15, NIV) As for six hundred and sixty six. I was taught that some numbers hold special significance. 1 = God, a holy number 3 = heaven and the Trinity 4 = earth, the four corners, four winds 6 = a human number, incomplete, evil 7 = complete, perfect, holy, divine because it was a combination of 3 (heaven) and 4 (earth) Thus, 666 would indicate something really evil. I have also read that during the reign of Domitian, who was considered the greatest evil, people would use the nummber 666 to indicate him without directly mentioning him. Somehow I don't believe this is the response you were looking for. I anxiously await your response to your post. Melinda
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Post by Soulfyre on Jan 7, 2005 11:37:53 GMT -5
Actually, how the writing on the wall and the number "666" defies explanation to me. But I would say that the number "6" doesn't generally refer to something evil so much as it is the number of humanity (God created "man" on the sixth day of creation). Traditionally, many believe that the triad of sixes refers to "man making himself God", "3" generally being considererd the number corresponding to God, in His fullness (the Trinity), or "divinity". The evil association is the numerological juxtaposition of "6" and "3". Compare Isaiah 14:12-15, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." God bless you always, Matthew (soulfyre)
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Post by Kenny on Jan 7, 2005 15:59:19 GMT -5
It's also one away from perfection, 7.
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