In what Biblical sense is fallen man's will free?

[rgrove]

I'm posting this question to start what I consider to be an important preliminary discussion to the topic of predestination that has come up. Please keep this thread exegetical in nature. That means theological statements should be drawn directly from scripture here. Arbitrary philisophical or theological statements should be avoided, or noted by others. Strictly philisophical arguments should be kept at arms length for the time being. Or philisophical arguments can be a separate thread if you really want to start from that basis, but it's not what I'd like to see here. I'll present my position as well of course, but this should be enough to establish the thread.

In Christ,
Ron

[Soulfyre]

You rascal. Just as I was to expound on the difference between "freedoom of the will" as it is often argued, and the existence of what might be considered an "uncoerced will", I noted that you wish this to be done exegetically (good for you!--but it will take me a little time).

I hope there are others also manfully, and "wo"-manfully, laboring on this good exercise. I will be looking forward to your responses.

God bless and keep you,

Matthew (soulfyre)


P.S. Turn around is fair play, you know, Ron.

[worthily]

Luk 22:22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

1Sa 25:17 Now therefore know and consider what thou wilt do; for evil is determined against our master, and against all his household: for he is such a son of Belial, that a man cannot speak to him.

2Co 2:1 But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness.

Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Mar 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

[melinky]

Let me get this straight, we are discussing "free will" vs. "uncoerced will" from a strictly scriptural standpoint. Is this correct?

Melinda

[worthily]

would you say adam and eve were coerced?

[rgrove]

melinky said:

Let me get this straight, we are discussing "free will" vs. "uncoerced will" from a strictly scriptural standpoint. Is this correct?

Melinda

Pretty much. Let's look at the scripture that is relevant to our will together and draw our conclusions directly from it. Takes a lot of discipline. Discipline that online boards aren't exactly known for so while I hope the idea succeeds, I won't be surprised if it doesn't. ;D

Thank you,
Ron

[rgrove]

When discussing this area I personally like to look first at what the Bible says regarding the relationship of God to our actions. I like to address this before addressing the state of man's heart in his fallen nature. Hopefully the reasons will become clear as I go. Two proverbs that I have looked at with great interest over the last few years are:

Proverbs 16:1 - The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:9 - The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.

While these proverbs may cause a lot of further questions, the ultimate point seems to me to be conclusive. We act in accord with what we desire to do in our hearts, but the Lord has determined how, when and where we will do it.

I believe we see these proverbs clearly reflected in God's word in a couple of events. My first example is Joseph speaking to his brothers at the end of Genesis:

Gen 50:19-20 - But Joseph said to them, "Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."

Here we see the hearts of the brothers and God sovereignly directing events, in accord with their heart's desire. And again in Isaiah 10.

Isaiah 10:5-7 - "Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger; the staff in their hands is my fury! Against a godless nation I send him, and against the people of my wrath I command him, to take spoil and seize plunder, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. But he does not so intend, and his heart does not so think; but it is in his heart to destroy, and to cut off nations not a few."

Here we see that God is using the evil intentions of the hearts of the Assyrians and directing it in accord with his perfect purpose of judgement against Israel. Not only is he doing this, but he will then turn around and judge Assyria for it because their purpose wasn't God's purpose, but evil all along.

Isaiah 10:12 - "When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, he will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes."

I would also point to Acts 2 as the ultimate working out of the proverbs with which I began this post. God clearly predestined this to happen (Acts 2:23), but everyone is still guilty and we behaving in accord with their hearts at every point in the process.

I believe these key passages conclusively make the case for compatibilism between God's predestinating purposes and man's will which is focused upon the heart. At the same time I believe they are devastating passages to the philisophical concept of "Libertarian Free Will". My next positive presentation will look at the state of fallen man's heart.

Ron

[rgrove]

worthily said:

would you say adam and eve were coerced?

I would use the framework proposed in my last post to evaluate this issue. God does not provide us with something as crystal clear as Genesis 50:19-20 for Adam and Eve (that I can see) so I propose we must look at specific events in the Bible, such as the representative examples I gave in my post on compatibilism which include the Gen 50 account, to evaluate what happened with Adam and Eve. I would say they were not coerced, but rather as Proverbs 16:9 says "The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps." They did what they desired to do. God determined how the process would proceed in accord with His perfect will.

In Christ,
Ron

[worthily]

You grasp the basis of direction and God's mapping of known pathways in regards to the relational reality of the conversation of two, and towards this pertaining context i could then apply it to the thought processes:

At which stage do you believe the sin was: before, during or after the transition?

My answer to that particular question would be perhaps the before stage because up to the point of the intervention of Satan on Eve, the only known choice was to follow God's direction but upon being given an 'outside' choice, Eve's own thought processes emerged as described, actually seems as though, an elevation by way of the self portrayal aspect, transpired. Perhaps we could conclude that the actual separation (sin) first took place at the moment of decision away from God's direction after being empathized to reach her thought processes. Adam and Eve's thought processes were then amplified by the opening of the knowledge of good and evil and since sin merits separation from God then that would substantiate enough reason for the value held upon faith to overcome what Adam and Eve initiated and merited punishment for--separation.

i use the term separation like two paths diverged not by naivete or curiosity but that is only my assertion.

Some people believe its just a matter of an overall disobedience but if you look at the details it describes her thought processes Do you have any remarks towards my findings?

[rgrove]

I was reading Genesis this weekend and was struck by one line in particular which seemed to confirm to me, without God providing us with the clarity found in other passages, that the two principles behind Proverbs 16:9 "The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps." were operative during the process of the fall.

Gen 3:6 says "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it." Certainly there was a significant outside influence, the father of lies himself, but the text says that "the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom...". This indicates to me that regardless of the fact that the Devil was there prompting her, she was absolutely acting in accord with her heart at the time. We have less information about Adam, but it seems to me this is enough information to apply the first part of Prov 16:9 and similar verses to the fall.

The second part of Prov 16:9 also seems to apply when we analyze what happened after the fall. As I read further I took note of two verses that I always pay a lot of attention to, but this discussion brought some new light to them (well, new to me. Perhaps it's common knowledge to others ). These verses are the famous protoevanglium of Gen 3:15 which says "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." then we see an equally important verse in Gen 3: 21 which says "The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them." Here we see that God used Satans normal behavior and Adam and Eve's desires of the heart to pronounce the coming of the messiah in the protoevanglium of Gen 3:15 and to demonstrate the nature of the work he would do when he came in Gen 3:21. Gen 3:15 promises the messiah would come as a man and in Gen 3:21 we see God (probably the pre-incarnate Jesus) conducting the first animal sacrifice and using it to clothe Adam and Eve in that sacrifice. The whole of Genesis floors me every time, but as I was reading it these verses seemed to come together beautifully under Prov 16:9 "The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps."

In Christ,
Ron

[worthily]

Gen 3:21 we see God (probably the pre-incarnate Jesus)

you bring up a very good point for it establishes Gen 1:26 from the intent of the Hebrew word translated.
we may in fact come towards the same conclusions for it is the consistency of overall scripture that draws my assertions.